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For Those Who Think Our Style Is Wrong; The Great Hard Men
Topic Started: Dec 13 2005, 06:46 AM (397 Views)
PartisanBCFC
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Jack Wiseman
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Look,let's get it out in the open ....there are the Gray and Gronks worshippers who think we should be like the 'Brazil of 1970' and play coffee house football to get us out of trouble
Or there are all the potential 'Steve Bruces' (and I am PROUD to be one of them) on here who think we should break the bank and sign Ronaldo,Shevchenko and Zidane

SB has already reverted to 'ugly' tactics and prepared to ship people out who ain't up for the task....fair play to him for that

My whole point is you CAN mix Ruggedness with Flair to make a GREAT team...in fact the GREAT teams of the past were built this way........Man United (had the flair of Best,Law and Chalrton and the aggression of Nobby Stiles and Paddy Crerand)...1st winners of the European Cup.........The MIGHTY Liverpool sides of the 70's and 80's who won EVERYTHING out there had 'in yer face' players like Tommy Smith,Steve Macmahon and Graeme Souness as well as the Keegans and the Heighways and the Dalgliesh's and the Rush's
Don Revie built style in the shape of Clarke,Giles and Lorimer around the ruggedness of Bremner and Jack Charlton.....this team was virtually unbeateable for a whole season .........and let's not overlook the legend Cloughie who steered 'unfashinable' Notts Forest to giddy heights with sheer guts,determination and most of all BELIEF
And remember our former manager Dave Mackay......as a player the Scotsman was probably the ORIGINAL hatchet man (he even broke his own legs Twice and couldn't wait to play again) but helped lead Spurs to their greatest ever successes alongside the talents of Greaves,Jones,Dyson and Blanchflower

Look at the great HARD men the Blues have had in the past......we were once known as the Brummie Bashers in the 60's but yet we have had some fine teams with a mix of hard men and natural ball players.........the 56 side was the best ever in our history (Brown,Smith,etc) ....and the 72-75 side had the magnificent 'Brick House in Blue' in the shape of Roger Hynd and the 'nutter' Gazza Pendrey alongside the superb world class Trevor Francis,gifted Kendall and the ace marksman Bobby Latchford

Don't forget Billy Wright,Kenny Burns or Micky Harford either

To be honest I'd rather have an 'unpretty' Blues winning every game 1-0 and winning trophies than a 'fancy dancy' one trying to play TOTAL football and losing 4-3 every week

Think about it
KRO
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proccy_blues
Joe Bradford
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as usual partisan some good points, and i can see where you're coming from. one of the "problems" in the modern game is that its becoming almost illegal to make a fair challenge. if you up-end someone its pretty much guaranteed to be a foul. so your argument is moot imo, as these types os players just wouldnt last 10 minutes today even by their own admission.
the type of footy is a different kettle of fish though, and although i'd personally love blues to be playing flowing, attacking footy AND winning, i'll settle for just winning.
btw, what the feck is "coffee house" footy??? :blink:
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Paul Tait's Tee-Shirt
Paul Tait's Tee Shirt
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Proccy
Dec 13 2005, 07:12 AM
btw, what the feck is "coffee house" footy??? :blink:

I presume it's playing like you've just smoked a spliff.......without a care in the world, oblivious to what's going on around you, loving the opposition and wanting to make their afternoon easier by going nowhere near them, playing hide and seek with the rest of your team mates etc etc **thumbup

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alfboy
Garry Pendrey
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I couldn't agree more, I was glad to see some of the players dropped to the bench for not pulling their weight.
Scraping for every ball and grinding out results is what has kept us in the premiership for this long, the transition to better quality is a hard and long one and needs to be done a player at a time.
Instead of 4 £1m players who have some skill but not enough desire, why not stick with the battlers we've got and add one £5m player who is of undoubted quality, like we did with Dunn.

You need the blend of people who will win you the ball and people who can play the ball, but at the end of it all, the people who are of better quality still need the desire and the commitment to do the dirty things like chasing back, making tackles and challenging for the ball in the air.
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hughesie
Ian Bennett
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fair post, but as you way yourself it is all about balance, and to often in the last four seasons we have not looked balanced, and inparticular in midfield.

for the first time since we played anderton and clem in the centre against fulham in the cup last season we looked reasonably balanced once butt moved into a more attacking role from the cente, with pennant down the right dunn on the left and jiri and heskey up front.

not many are asking for attack attack attack but we are asing for balance and some attacking threat, otherwise we will never score!
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StAndrews4Eva
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Gil Merrick
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alfboy is right - it is about balance of fighters and flair players who can turn the game on its head.

Once we have achieved this balance then i think we will be ok. I feel we should have 1 attacking and 1 defensive midfielder in a pairing at all times - not two holding midfielders and 2 wingers.

The only way 2 defensive midfielders can be justified is in a formation like this


...............Butt..............Clem...............

........................Jarosik.......................

.....Pennant.........................Dunn..........

........................Heskey...........................

Obviously there would be defenders in there as well!

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Lucky
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Bob Latchford
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every time i see the teamsheet ,i look for a balanced team,its vital,but it has not happened many times,
the players that were mentioned could mix it but you cant compare to players these days because the rules have changed so much,the hard men could not play todays game because of the changes,could you imagine a norman hunter tackle with todays refs.
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charliedontsurf
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Geoff Horsfield
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You cannot talk about balanced teams and then say you would want a team full of fighters everyday.

(BTW Partisan, don't mean to sound snide, but thinking that Gray and Gronks do not deserve ritual decapitation does not mean you want coffee house football)

Our big problem is we have NEVER had balance. Clem and Sav was not a balanced midfield. Neither is Butt and Clem. Neither is Butt and DJ We would not play Kilkenny and Dunn together in the middle, so why is it acceptable to have two 'battler's?

In many respetcs I think the flair/battler argument is a misnomer as we have not played anything even remotely resembling FLAIR football ALL SEASON. I am thoroughly dispirited every time I hear Bruce syaing we are going to go back 'to playing ugly'.

We have never stopped playing UGLY anyway. If Upson and Kenny hoofing balls up to Heskey whilst the midfield run around and give the ball away is not ugly, I do not know what is! We played ugly against the Vile and lost. We played ugly against Boro and lost. We played ugly against Sunderland and Fulham and just about scraped it.

Talking about playing 'battling' football is rubbish. It will not keep us in the division, otherwise Palace, Barnsley and others would still be here. The difference in the prem is class. In Dunn, Jiri, Kilkenny and Pennant we have players who have class. I am not saying we should not have the likes of DJ there, but they should be there to allow Dunn et al to do the good stuff, and we should NOT be packing a side full of players like that, otherwise our achilles heel - the fact that we DO NOT and NEVER HAVE scored enough goals with SB in charge - will remain.
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The_Bear
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Gil Merrick
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I disagree, the way we played on Saturday was different to the previous games I have seen this season. There seemed to be a drive, a will to scrap for every ball and I liked it. We won! if we can produce the same for the rest of the season I think we could avoid the drop. We will lose to the more skilfull teams but we should win enough to scrap out of trouble.

We need to build in the summer and to find a way to add another dimension to our game.
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mr penguin
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BmvBlue
Dec 13 2005, 08:18 AM
Proccy
Dec 13 2005, 07:12 AM
btw, what the feck is "coffee house" footy???  :blink:

I presume it's playing like you've just smoked a spliff.......without a care in the world, oblivious to what's going on around you, loving the opposition and wanting to make their afternoon easier by going nowhere near them, playing hide and seek with the rest of your team mates etc etc **thumbup

Julian Gray's nickname should be Starbucks.
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proccy_blues
Joe Bradford
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mr penguin
Dec 13 2005, 11:12 AM
BmvBlue
Dec 13 2005, 08:18 AM
Proccy
Dec 13 2005, 07:12 AM
btw, what the feck is "coffee house" footy???  :blink:

I presume it's playing like you've just smoked a spliff.......without a care in the world, oblivious to what's going on around you, loving the opposition and wanting to make their afternoon easier by going nowhere near them, playing hide and seek with the rest of your team mates etc etc **thumbup

Julian Gray's nickname should be Starbucks.

:lol: :lol: the long lost art of "less being more", resurrected by penguin :rolleyes:
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steveb
Steve Claridge
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The_Bear
Dec 13 2005, 10:53 AM
I disagree, the way we played on Saturday was different to the previous games I have seen this season. There seemed to be a drive, a will to scrap for every ball and I liked it. We won! if we can produce the same for the rest of the season I think we could avoid the drop. We will lose to the more skilfull teams but we should win enough to scrap out of trouble.

We need to build in the summer and to find a way to add another dimension to our game.

to me it seemed like they played more as a team and for each other.thats why it looked different to the previous games :)
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PartisanBCFC
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Jack Wiseman
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Proccy
Dec 13 2005, 07:12 AM
as usual partisan some good points, and i can see where you're coming from. one of the "problems" in the modern game is that its becoming almost illegal to make a fair challenge. if you up-end someone its pretty much guaranteed to be a foul. so your argument is moot imo, as these types os players just wouldnt last 10 minutes today even by their own admission.
the type of footy is a different kettle of fish though, and although i'd personally love blues to be playing flowing, attacking footy AND winning, i'll settle for just winning.
btw, what the feck is "coffee house" footy???  :blink:

Coffee House football ???
Oh sorry chaps...it was just a funny expression going back to when I was a teenager and training with my team in those days, a few of us would try the fancy flicks and ball juggling that was mastered by the Brazilian stars of that era (Pele,Gerson,Rivelino,Carlos Alberto and later the great Zico) but our coach (who was truly English old school) would yell at us and shout "Cut out the Coffee House Football"....he just couldn't stand players trying to express themselves I guess and said anyone who balanced the ball on his head and shoulders during a game belonged down the zoo with the Sea Lions instead...he really was a character.... :D

So coffee house football was really a kind of a jealous tribute to that great Brazil team of 1970 ......they played a very boring and very defensive Italy side in the 1970 WC Final and triumphed 4-1....it really was TOTAL football as it should be played and for once,much to the pleasure of fans round the world watching it ...an attack minded side totally hammered a team that was only prepared to defend in mass numbers and kill the game dead......it doesn't always happen that way,these days does it ??

Funny how Brazil is the one country that seems to produce these wonderfully magical individuals like they roll off a conveyor belt (all that practice on the white sandy beaches makes perfect) .....Even funnier is they mastered one of the simplest strategies in the game itself......They KEEP the ball when they are winning ....remember when they beat England in Japan....when they went 2-1 up we just couldn't get that round pill back off them...it was a joy to watch (except if you're English of course).... :blink:
KRO
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The Blue Bear
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Mikael Forssell
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Some good debate going on here.

My view is, it's vital, for any team, no matter what league you play in, be they proffesional, semi-pro, amateur or sunday league pub standard, that you have people who can battle, win the tackles, strong headers of the ball, solid players.....with a mix of one or two players who can play 'beautiful' football.

Those areas you need a football brain, well, one is in midfield, ala Glenn Hoddle.

The other is up front, now, you can be either the stereo-typical British centre forward in the mould of Mick Harford, or you can be the 'little 'un', who runs here there and everywhere, it doesn't matter, as long as one of them has a 'football brain'.

So, for me, you need, a playmaker in midfield. A winger who can get past full backs with pace for fun, and a striker who knows how to 'use the penalty area'.
Thats 3 footballers.....the rest can be hard-working players, and they will do just fine in their respective standards.

IMO.
:)
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proccy_blues
Joe Bradford
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The Blue Bear
Dec 14 2005, 06:05 AM
So, for me, you need, a playmaker in midfield. A winger who can get past full backs with pace for fun, and a striker who knows how to 'use the penalty area'.
Thats 3 footballers.....the rest can be hard-working players, and they will do just fine in their respective standards.

IMO.
:)

i feel these days you need a bit more than that. personally i think you need a deal of intelligence to play at the back, in terms of anticipation and usage of the ball when you've got it - otherwise you'll just see hoof-ball. so i'd say you need 2 intelligent footballing defenders (who can also tackle btw), not less but probably more than 2 ball players in midfield ( who can also tackle ) and reckon 2 forward players who can read a pass, read the game and make the intelligent well timed runs that make all the difference - look no further than players like henry, v.nistelroy and owen.......imo of course ;)
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BornBlueNosed
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Martin Grainger
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Whilst in Partisan's terms I am probably in the coffee house football group I also agree its all about balance. We need battlers like DJ but we don't need 11 of them on the pitch if we want to go anywhere. Good teams have their flair players and their battlers and with the right balance it works. The problem is their ae a lot of our fans who ONLY want battlers and people in the Savage mould who run around a lot and look busy regardless how effective that actually is. Personally I would rather have a player who was in the right position at the right time but when not required wasn't rushing all over the pitch just to look like he 'cared' and that he is 'sweating blood' for the shirt.

However I think that to dig yourself out of the bottom three requires the scales to be tipped towards battlers who will more likely grind out results but this wont get you much above lower mid-table to push for Europe a balanced team is required or one slightly skewed in favour of the flair players as at that end of the table skill and intelligent play will get you further than pure graft.

I would also agree that for most of this season we haven't exactly been playing great flair football but instead have been lost somewhere between the two which hasn't quite worked. Also as IMO flair players tend to be more confidence based than battlers the more games we lost the worse it has gotten.

Assuming we do battle our way into a reasonably secure mid-table position before the end of the season the question becomes what then. Do we see out the season battling and grinding out results or do we again try to be more adventurous and see if we can push up the table that bit further. My main worry is that because its all gone so wrong this season SB will try to battle his way to success next season and that will only lead to a mid-table finish. He had the right idea its just a matter of execution.

BBN
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The Blue Bear
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Mikael Forssell
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Proccy
Dec 14 2005, 08:44 AM
The Blue Bear
Dec 14 2005, 06:05 AM
So, for me, you need, a playmaker in midfield. A winger who can get past full backs with pace for fun, and a striker who knows how to 'use the penalty area'.
Thats 3 footballers.....the rest can be hard-working players, and they will do just fine in their respective standards.

IMO.
:)

i feel these days you need a bit more than that. personally i think you need a deal of intelligence to play at the back, in terms of anticipation and usage of the ball when you've got it - otherwise you'll just see hoof-ball. so i'd say you need 2 intelligent footballing defenders (who can also tackle btw), not less but probably more than 2 ball players in midfield ( who can also tackle ) and reckon 2 forward players who can read a pass, read the game and make the intelligent well timed runs that make all the difference - look no further than players like henry, v.nistelroy and owen.......imo of course ;)

I agree with you......if you're looking at picking an International team! LOL ;)
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proccy_blues
Joe Bradford
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The Blue Bear
Dec 14 2005, 08:20 PM
Proccy
Dec 14 2005, 08:44 AM
The Blue Bear
Dec 14 2005, 06:05 AM
So, for me, you need, a playmaker in midfield. A winger who can get past full backs with pace for fun, and a striker who knows how to 'use the penalty area'.
Thats 3 footballers.....the rest can be hard-working players, and they will do just fine in their respective standards.

IMO.
:)

i feel these days you need a bit more than that. personally i think you need a deal of intelligence to play at the back, in terms of anticipation and usage of the ball when you've got it - otherwise you'll just see hoof-ball. so i'd say you need 2 intelligent footballing defenders (who can also tackle btw), not less but probably more than 2 ball players in midfield ( who can also tackle ) and reckon 2 forward players who can read a pass, read the game and make the intelligent well timed runs that make all the difference - look no further than players like henry, v.nistelroy and owen.......imo of course ;)

I agree with you......if you're looking at picking an International team! LOL ;)

you know i'm right, thats why teams have so many "versatile" players these days :D
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