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The Uncomfortable Truth About 'racism'; ...Brum is a prime example.
Topic Started: Jan 27 2006, 07:41 PM (2,335 Views)
mr penguin
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k-bek
Jan 29 2006, 10:00 PM
Being tolerant of people wanting to stick together is one thing. Changing the way you live and ignoring your own traditions, beliefs and culture so they're not offended is another issue entirely.

What creates much oif the racial tensions today is the way many people feel they are expected to ignore their own values, beliefs and traditions but accept those of others without question.

There is something in that, imo. Local government funding of St.Pat's parades whilst refusing to support St.George's Day is an example that annoys me. I'd like to see English people, of all races, being a bit more patriotic & more willing to celebrate our culture.

By the way, immigrant communities maintaining their own culture can be a good thing if you're prepared to embrace it. Shopping in Southall, Wembley, parts of the East End, or chinatown is an experience that many white Londoners enjoy. Food is one obvious example - would this country really be a better place without baltis, kebabs, pizza or special fried rice ? - but look beyond food, take the best bits from different cultures & enjoy them.

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mr penguin
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chris1875
Jan 29 2006, 10:12 PM
I don't want to comment on a thread like this because i could see my opinions getting me a ban.

Pity. Discussion beats censorship any day in my book.
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pestcontrol
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good post k-bek, but i think the issue is not about race anymore but about religion, the one is peace loving and the other demands war and killing of anybody that does not follow it, but dont worry now that the new president of iran thinks that the mardi will return or even that he is the mardi, we wont have long to see how much our ethnic brothers and sisters love us.
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The Blue Bear
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Mikael Forssell
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I am currently reading 'Mein Kampf'.

Not because I am a radical rascist or beleive in those ideals set out by those who are, but have always been interested in the thoughts, and reasons, of those that appear to be.

It's a very difficult book to read, mainly due to the lack of technical writing skills of the author, and it's interpretation but nonetheless a very, very interesting read.

His account of the 'De-Germanisation' of his homeland, at the hands of the Jews, through their position of power in the press and more notably in political groups who had a great share of influence on the people, is fascinating.

I never thought I would hear myself say this, but parts of this book are actually spot on. Some of his ramblings are as true today as they were then, one example being his desire to increase the standard of living for the common working class German man, improving his working environment, increasing his wage structure and health care, and believe it or not, he was a man who at one stage anyway, believed in true family morals.

Another which I found myself agreeing with was the moronic reportings in the daily press, nothing changes there then. The gutter press, even then, it appears, would 'create' these wild fantastic reports on high level authorities, even if they did not exist. To lie about people, and to make up stories with the sole intention of destroying their very nature is as low as you can get, and with the intellectual capacity of the common man as it stands, these stories and lies carry a weight of truth, it's a scandal I tell you!

It is a book that we should all read, even if just to see why he did what he did. True, the man was mad. But I don't beleive that was always the case, I truly believe that initially at least, he had the well being of his countrymen, and of his homeland at heart. Of course, we all know how the story ends, desperate human disaster on a world scale.

I currently live in Brisbane, and you wont find a more diverse mixed race community than here in Australia. But even here, in this idylic, breathtaking part of the world, where, as a whole people mix well, you still get the race problem rear it's ugly head. Only recently there have been race riots in Sydney. I look around the suburbs of Brisbane and I see Greek, Chinese, Bosnian, Serbian communities....which would appear to agree with the very first post of this thread. These people have travelled thousands of miles to start afresh. To begin a new life with new opportunities....but their instinct is to set up or form communities with 'their own kind' as opposed to amalgamating with the local communities, adding their own unique brand to one of a multi nationalistic society.
No. They want 'their own' next door and accross the street, and bemoan all that is good about this great and free land, and often bite the hand that feeds it.

Based on the knowledge I have gained in my life, through my time in the Army, to living in England, Wales and Australia, travelling extensively through Europe, after all the books that I have read, and all the things I have witnessed with my own eyes, I will make my own mind up on this issue as opposed to following the 'well meaning' and 'nice' agreeable posts of this thread.

That is, people are rascist. It is instilled in them from birth. It is encouraged, from the highest goverment, to the parents of new born. Take a look at your passport and what does it say? Is it the passport of a human being? No. It is the passport of your dedicated country.

Based on these facts, I believe that all Humans are rascist at some level, and those who say they are not, are either fools who need to open their eyes, or liars.
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k-bek
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It does seem that religion is causing the biggest problems.

It seems that certain religions, 1 in particular, does not have the ability to adapt. You must live in primative times, primative dress with primative views, primative values and no ambition or you're not allowed in. The way women are treated is nothing short of barbaric in some areas.

Instead of adapting, tolerating and creating a 21st Century life based upon the values of the religion, they want to force people to live exactly as it was hundreds of years ago. It is difficult for some to understand because it is viewed behind closed doors that are never left ajar.

In many areas of Birmingham people live side by side quite happily accepting eachother and experiencing eachother's lives. In other areas it isn't so.

What does tolerance mean?
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willingness to accept behaviour and beliefs which are different from your own, although you might not agree with or approve of them.


To tolerate someone you disagree with what they are or stand for but put up with them.

I don't tolerate the chinese family, the asian family or the black family in my street at all. Far from it. They're human beings and are treated exactly the same as everyone else by me.
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The Concerned Potato Head
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^^^(*assumes the religion being discussed is Islam*) :ph43r:


i don't wanna stirr up contoversy, but there is a lot of 'dodgy' stuff in the Koran. especially about warfare and other faiths :huh: i really couldnt believe it when my mate showed me a few pages

but the Bible is also a bit off-centre as well, i mean drowning people because they werent all nice people :blink:

now you know why i am atheist :lol:

the bottom line for me is, respect me and i'll respect you. i really do not care what you believe or where your blood comes from.

i don't understand how some can people treat other people worse than dogs because of their race or religion
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garrybaldy
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Personally, I like what Mr Potatohead is saying, and it is nice to get the point of view of someone from a 'minority' as some would say, i too love Birminghams diversity, i love the fact we have so many different colours , traditions , religions ( i am christian ,but love delving into other beliefs), i recently was invited into the Gurdwara on Smethwick High St, awe inspiring. I have been in the Central Mosque , spoke to many different believers from all faiths.
Growing up in Knowle and going to school there , as many of you may know , knowle was/is a predominantely White area, and at the time i can say was pretty much Intolerant to other colours and faiths, in a way a little backward, we never ventured much past Solihull :lol: , all that changed when i left School and started work, meeting different people, encountering different beliefs/practices, lets just say it was good for my soul.
All i ask of people is to be tolerant, try to learn of others beliefs, don't always believe the hype (Islam Etc), Love and Respect this Country even if you weren't born here , Too many people Put this country down , and lets have a national holiday on St Georges Day to reflect how Great this country is **thumbup
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mr penguin
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The Blue Bear
Jan 29 2006, 10:47 PM
That is, people are rascist. It is instilled in them from birth. It is encouraged, from the highest goverment, to the parents of new born. Take a look at your passport and what does it say? Is it the passport of a human being? No. It is the passport of your dedicated country.

Based on these facts, I believe that all Humans are rascist at some level, and those who say they are not, are either fools who need to open their eyes, or liars.

Depends what you mean, BB.

If you mean that everybody sees racial, religious, national & cultural differences & in some ways adapts their behavious as a result, I think you are right. For instance, my preconceptions of, say, a dark-skinned man in a turban and a white guy wearing a baseball would be different.

But most people mean "racist" to mean (at the extreme end) believing that some people are inferior simply on account of their race or (more mildly) treating a whole section of people - e.g. "all muslims" - as a homogenous group, rather than seeing each person for what he is. I don't think that most people, let alone everybody, are racist in this sense.

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bluejan
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**thumbup

well said gb

**thumbup
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k-bek
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I think the deciding factor in all of this is the fact that although the Bible mentions doing certain things for certain reasons people do not insist on living by it to the extent where they are willing to blow themselves and as many others as possible to bits for it.

It does seem that Christians are more tolerant and accepting because Christianity has adapted over the centuries to accept differences thrown up by a diverse society.

If you follow Islam you are expected to take it word for word, literally and live your life exactly by what is said in teh Qu'ran. In fact, as the World becomes more tolerant, diverse and multiculteral Islam is doing it's best to be the oposite. Young educated me and women are killing to avenge conflicts that were over centuries ago. Someone, somewhere is stirring up massive hatred and using past discrepancies by all none Islamic people to fuel the argument. By glorifying their actions and praising them for doing god's work the evil expremists are creating massive hatred World Wide.

By stating Israel should be wiped off the map the President of Iran is provoking millions of people. Some Muslims believe the Qu'ran is the truth and is a directory for life. As long as the evil side of it is being glorified by people there will be no end to the killing.


I knew this thread would come round to this eventually but you can't have a debate on tolerance without addressing the intolerant. IMHO those seen as the minorities in GB are the most intolerant of them all. You can't love your neighbour if she is covered from head to foot and never makes eye contact with you.
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mr penguin
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k-bek
Jan 29 2006, 11:00 PM
It seems that certain religions, 1 in particular, does not have the ability to adapt. You must live in primative times, primative dress with primative views, primative values and no ambition or you're not allowed in. The way women are treated is nothing short of barbaric in some areas.


There are many thousands of muslims in Britain who have managed to integrate successfully into British life. We only get to hear about the handful of fanatics.

Most muslim teenagers, for instance, are virtually indistinguisable from the white kids that they went to school with : just as interested in football, pop music, fashion, etc & make a good job of reconciling all this with their family's faith & traditions.
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The Blue Bear
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mr penguin
Jan 29 2006, 11:45 PM
If you mean that everybody sees racial, religious, national & cultural differences & in some ways adapts their behavious as a result, I think you are right. For instance, my preconceptions of, say, a dark-skinned man in a turban and a white guy wearing a baseball would be different.


Hi mate,

Yep, exactly. But why would your precoconceptions of these two people be different? Thats my point.

Humans have been fighting wars since the dawn of man, for that very reason. All it needs is one man, such as Hitler or Osama Bin Laden, to lead the masses into somehting they have no real understanding of.

I guess when it comes down to it, as a human race, we are not very nice at all.

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mr penguin
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The Blue Bear
Jan 29 2006, 11:54 PM
mr penguin
Jan 29 2006, 11:45 PM
If you mean that everybody sees racial, religious, national & cultural differences & in some ways adapts their behavious as a result, I think you are  right. For instance, my preconceptions of, say, a dark-skinned man in a turban and a white guy wearing a baseball would be different.


Hi mate,

Yep, exactly. But why would your precoconceptions of these two people be different? Thats my point.

I guess when it comes down to it, as a human race, we are not very nice at all.


I guess because we instinctively make initial judgements based on experience and social programming; not only based on race, but gender, age, dress, etc (but, note that I said "different", rather than better or worse).

I don't agree that any of this suggests that the human race is not very nice. On the contrary, attempts to "lead the masses" in Britain into any kind of race war have never gained much support. Generally speaking most people aren't interested in fighting with others just because of race, religion or nationality. We haven't even had a war with the French or the Scots for centuries.
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k-bek
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mr penguin
Jan 29 2006, 11:52 PM
k-bek
Jan 29 2006, 11:00 PM
It seems that certain religions, 1 in particular, does not have the ability to adapt. You must live in primative times, primative dress with primative views, primative values and no ambition or you're not allowed in. The way women are treated is nothing short of barbaric in some areas.


There are many thousands of muslims in Britain who have managed to integrate successfully into British life. We only get to hear about the handful of fanatics.

Most muslim teenagers, for instance, are virtually indistinguisable from the white kids that they went to school with : just as interested in football, pop music, fashion, etc & make a good job of reconciling all this with their family's faith & traditions.

Penguin, you can't make sweeping statements either way m8.

I do not come into contact with many muslims these days. I worked witha muslim for a few years and he turned his back on the religion claiming it was all about money and status. Nothing more. He refused ot have anything to do with it.


I know a number of people who have white daughters who go to colleges in Birmingham. Many of them ahve stories of how the 'asians' stick together and ill not communicate with any white kids in their classes or around college.

In your experience you have found peopel to be equally into football and music. Sorry m8 but in mine and the people I know that simply is not the case.

I would love to think it is a minority of fanatics causing trouble for the masses but that just isn't the case. Maybe it is a minority who encourage bombings and killings but the disliking or hatred run far deeper than that. it is more than a hand full of fanatics we're dealing with.

1 fanatic can have access to hundreds or even thousands of impressionable minds. Why else would a seemingly normal, loving husband and father kiss his children goodbye then set off to blow himself up on a London tube train? This man wasn't a mindless fanatic, part of a handfull.


Why has the amount of women and young girls wearing the full birkah (?) become far more in recent years? Could it be because the older generation is pushing them into it by telling them lies about Western people and ways? We have no idea but I bet there are thousands who wouldn't choose it if it was their own choice alone.


It is at this point the debate gets a little blurred and opinions start to come into it a bit more.

Religious segregation is growing and I can oly see 1 reason for it. Islam. However tolerant it claims to be it does appear that many millions of its followers are not tolerant at all.
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mr penguin
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k-bek
Jan 30 2006, 12:07 AM
Penguin, you can't make sweeping statements either way m8.

That's fair enough. Good discussion, thanks. **thumbup
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garrybaldy
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Although K -Bek your sweeping statement about religious segregation being down to islam is ok then :rolleyes:
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pestcontrol
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maybe the liberal mind control brigade could ban this, because i know it changed the way i think, in fact i wish i had never read it at all, its not open to interpretation as it is the word of god, i would suggest you all read it, and then debate it.
we are faced with ideology that stems from one single book the "Koran".
The people who believe in this book are all over the world and live among us, the moderate Muslims and the fanatic Muslims. It is very difficult to distinguish between the two because the fanatics want to implement it as it preaches and the so called moderates who live among us practicing the same belief without expressing themselves in the same manner as the fanatics, they seem to be watching hoping something will happen from those fanatics and the whole world become Muslims. So every body will be happy.
To fight ideology of this magnitude we have to look at this book in the same fashion as we look at any other book that promote hatred against any other human believe. This war should be against those who possess hate literature; as a matter of fact the book should be prohibited from being available in library or even to be possessed by any citizen living in our Country.

We must realize that the existence of this book is a threat now and in the future, young generations are now living among us going every Friday to the Mosques learning to hate others who do not believe in their book will become the fanatics of the future. It will be non-ending war against this ideology, it will not matter how much we do it will always exist unless we take the proper fight to clear this ideology from the mind and the possession of any hate literature.
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mr penguin
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pestcontrol
Jan 30 2006, 12:25 AM
maybe the liberal mind control brigade could ban this, because i know it changed the way i think, in fact i wish i had never read it at all, its not open to interpretation as it is the word of god, i would suggest you all read it, and then debate it.
we are faced with ideology that stems from one single book the "Koran".
The people who believe in this book are all over the world and live among us, the moderate Muslims and the fanatic Muslims. It is very difficult to distinguish between the two because the fanatics want to implement it as it preaches and the so called moderates who live among us practicing the same belief without expressing themselves in the same manner as the fanatics, they seem to be watching hoping something will happen from those fanatics and the whole world become Muslims. So every body will be happy.
To fight ideology of this magnitude we have to look at this book in the same fashion as we look at any other book that promote hatred against any other human believe. This war should be against those who possess hate literature; as a matter of fact the book should be prohibited from being available in library or even to be possessed by any citizen living in our Country.

We must realize that the existence of this book is a threat now and in the future, young generations are now living among us going every Friday to the Mosques learning to hate others who do not believe in their book will become the fanatics of the future. It will be non-ending war against this ideology, it will not matter how much we do it will always exist unless we take the proper fight to clear this ideology from the mind and the possession of any hate literature.

Have you ever read the bible ? :blink:
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garrybaldy
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crikey :o :o :o
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The Blue Bear
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mr penguin
Jan 30 2006, 12:06 AM
I guess because we instinctively make initial judgements based on experience and social programming; not only based on race, but gender, age, dress, etc (but, note that I said "different", rather than better or worse).

I don't agree that any of this suggests that the human race is not very nice. On the contrary, attempts to "lead the masses" in Britain into any kind of race war have never gained much support. Generally speaking most people aren't interested in fighting with others just because of race, religion or nationality. We haven't even had a war with the French or the Scots for centuries.

Your first point supports my inital post in this thread, esp with regards to social programming. But how does this manipulation of ones mind occur? A child is born and free of any knowledge or feelings, a blank spreadsheet if you will, and it's others that have influence that write the pages into this spreadsheet, such as parents, the education system, the health system, the political powers that be at that time and, as Hitler said, the press.

People aren't born with these issues, they are taught it, or seek to learn it.

Your 2nd point is misleading in that it is also untrue. The citizens of Britain and its commonwealth have supported many wars and conflicts over the centuries, yet notice how I restrain from calling them 'Race wars', as I never mentioned this, just the fact that the human race, have been fighting wars since the dawn of time, which was in agreed response to your comment on 'premisconceptions' point.

Mankind by nature, is an aggressive being. We kill for reasons far more than survival. The Race issue is just one of them, and unfortunately, I see no end to it.
Take a look around the World news everyone, and you will always see somewhere, scenes of terror, oppresion, conflict, war and famine, all down to issues with Race.

It's a sad world we live in, and I forsee mankind destroying itself. We know no other way, thats the Human RACE.
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The Blue Bear
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k-bek
Jan 30 2006, 12:07 AM
1 fanatic can have access to hundreds or even thousands of impressionable minds.

Agree totally. See my initial thread.
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The Concerned Potato Head
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i've always intergratred into ''British'' society. i don't purposely seek other Black people and keep to my own people. this is jus' the way i was raised, in a mixed neighbourhood.

reading on the last page, when someone said that there were Asian girls not intergrating in school, i think the reason is because they all have a common bond, something in common. i mean me, an 18 year old African-Carribbean, would not really have much to say to a White, 56 year old man, apart from ''the weather's awful aint it'' :lol:

but the White peoples also need to realise that they do the same thing. you go to Spain, where do you go? to the places where thouands of other White British tourists go. why? because you have a sense of familiarity and can just ''fit in''. i know this is not the most solid example, but we ALL do it. it's called feeling comfortable with what you know about and not feeling comfortable with what you don't know about. there's nothing racist about this attitude, it's simply instinct. you see a dog, and it sees 2 groups, one group of cats, and one group of fellow dogs, who do you think the dog is gonna wanna chill with :lol:

peace! **thumbup
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The Blue Bear
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The Concerned Potato Head
Jan 30 2006, 03:21 AM
peace! **thumbup

Amen Brother.
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pestcontrol
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The Concerned Potato Head
Jan 30 2006, 03:21 AM
i've always intergratred into ''British'' society. i don't purposely seek other Black people and keep to my own people. this is jus' the way i was raised, in a mixed neighbourhood.

reading on the last page, when someone said that there were Asian girls not intergrating in school, i think the reason is because they all have a common bond, something in common. i mean me, an 18 year old African-Carribbean, would not really have much to say to a White, 56 year old man, apart from ''the weather's awful aint it'' :lol:

but the White peoples also need to realise that they do the same thing. you go to Spain, where do you go? to the places where thouands of other White British tourists go. why? because you have a sense of familiarity and can just ''fit in''. i know this is not the most solid example, but we ALL do it. it's called feeling comfortable with what you know about and not feeling comfortable with what you don't know about. there's nothing racist about this attitude, it's simply instinct. you see a dog, and it sees 2 groups, one group of cats, and one group of fellow dogs, who do you think the dog is gonna wanna chill with :lol:

peace! **thumbup

i recently watched a film by 50 cent get rich or die trying which basicly portrayed all blackmen as crack makers and dealers, i thought to myself he used to much water and not enough baking powder for that amount of coke and dropping the ice in to soon is risky buisness, i am a middle aged white guy and i wish to complain about the absence of any white crack dealers in the film, i mean they threw a few token hispanics in, but it simply is not good enough.

when they banned black humour(parden the pun) was the start of the rot for me, you used to be able to go anywhere and see a comedian cracking jokes about every colour and race and religion and only the odd nutter was ever offended. when a comedian can be branded a racist for telling jokes is a sorry state of affairs.
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StAndrews4Eva
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The Concerned Potato Head
Jan 30 2006, 03:21 AM
i've always intergratred into ''British'' society. i don't purposely seek other Black people and keep to my own people. this is jus' the way i was raised, in a mixed neighbourhood.

reading on the last page, when someone said that there were Asian girls not intergrating in school, i think the reason is because they all have a common bond, something in common. i mean me, an 18 year old African-Carribbean, would not really have much to say to a White, 56 year old man, apart from ''the weather's awful aint it'' :lol:

but the White peoples also need to realise that they do the same thing. you go to Spain, where do you go? to the places where thouands of other White British tourists go. why? because you have a sense of familiarity and can just ''fit in''. i know this is not the most solid example, but we ALL do it. it's called feeling comfortable with what you know about and not feeling comfortable with what you don't know about. there's nothing racist about this attitude, it's simply instinct. you see a dog, and it sees 2 groups, one group of cats, and one group of fellow dogs, who do you think the dog is gonna wanna chill with :lol:

peace! **thumbup

Excellent post.

Like you, i dont really like talking about this subject as often there can be small minded people who dont want to listen to others point of view - from looking at this thread so far that is not the case and so i feel comfortbale joining in.

Racial segregation is not always the fault of the minority people. If you are a muslim or black person in Birmingham and you go to the coucil to seek housing you dont have that much control over the area that you send you to live in. You can express a preference but 95% of the time they will place you in an area that is already heavily populated with black and asian people. If the big wigs of this country want to put a stop to racial segregation then i suggest they look closely at the housing departments within their own councils.

Secondly, as much as people say it isnt, racism is still rife in this country. Whether it be white and black, black and asian or caribbean and african. There are still examples of racism happening every day in this country. My husband has been with me at St Andys and the bloke a few rows behind us starting shouting 'black this, back the other (i'm not going to even dignify what he said by repeating at) at Heskey and Gray. When he challenged them all they said is 'oh its just a phrase'.

I dont think all this politically correct nonsense has helped ease race relations in this country. What a lot of people dont seem to grasp is terms that they are told are offensive to black/asian people usually are not. It is the white middle class company, and normally council, bosses who are so out of touch with the real world that decide to out law a certain phrase in case it offends. An example of this can be given with my sister. She works for Walsall council in a children home and they have bee told by the council bosses that they can not call a black bin bag a black bin bag - it has to be called a 'non white refuse sack'. Now they didnt even ask the black people who work there is the term offends them, they just went straight in and declared it an offensive term. Now i challenge you to find me ANY black person who would be offended by that phrase - surely it is more offensive to say black isnt a colour.

Those people who dont really have contact with anyone from a black or asian background (through choice or just circumstance) will believe all this media spin about political correctness and this is what is harming race relations in this country.

Sorry to ramble but thats just my take on it.
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