Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to bcfcforum.co.uk. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
The Uncomfortable Truth About 'racism'; ...Brum is a prime example.
Topic Started: Jan 27 2006, 07:41 PM (2,334 Views)
The_Bear
Member Avatar
Gil Merrick
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Spot on Erika! **thumbup
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
mr penguin
Sponsored by Flybe.com
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
StAndrews4Eva
Jan 30 2006, 09:07 AM
Secondly, as much as people say it isnt, racism is still rife in this country. Whether it be white and black, black and asian or caribbean and african. There are still examples of racism happening every day in this country. My husband has been with me at St Andys and the bloke a few rows behind us starting shouting 'black this, back the other (i'm not going to even dignify what he said by repeating at) at Heskey and Gray. When he challenged them all they said is 'oh its just a phrase'.


One bloke shouted racists comments. How many hundreds did not ? You only noticed & remembered it because it so unusual & contrary to the values of most people.

Yes, we can easily find examples of racism. That's not at all surprising in a small country with many large immigrant communities and more ethnic diversity than any other country.

My point is simply that we tend to concentrate on the few negatives (white racism, muslim radicalism, whatever) and ignore the many more positive examples of integration, tolerance and racial harmony. I guess it's because they are so common that we take them for granted & simply don't see them anymore.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
StAndrews4Eva
Member Avatar
Gil Merrick
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
mr penguin
Jan 30 2006, 10:05 AM
StAndrews4Eva
Jan 30 2006, 09:07 AM
Secondly, as much as people say it isnt, racism is still rife in this country. Whether it be white and black, black and asian or caribbean and african. There are still examples of racism happening every day in this country. My husband has been with me at St Andys and the bloke a few rows behind us starting shouting 'black this, back the other (i'm not going to even dignify what he said by repeating at) at Heskey and Gray. When he challenged them all they said is 'oh its just a phrase'.


One bloke shouted racists comments. How many hundreds did not ? You only noticed & remembered it because it so unusual & contrary to the values of most people.

Yes, we can easily find examples of racism. That's not at all surprising in a small country with many large immigrant communities and more ethnic diversity than any other country.

My point is simply that we tend to concentrate on the few negatives (white racism, muslim radicalism, whatever) and ignore the many more positive examples of integration, tolerance and racial harmony. I guess it's because they are so common that we take them for granted & simply don't see them anymore.

Good point Mr Penguin. The incident i was referring to at St Andys is just one example that i choose to use.

I guess it's because they are so common that we take them for granted & simply don't see them anymore.


This is a good point. There are a lot of positives to be taken from a multi culrural Britain. I for one love the diversity that this has brought to the country.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
garrybaldy
foley okenla, richie moran
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
thats what it all boils down to the majority of people are trying to get on with their lives **thumbup
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
jassyblue80
Member Avatar
Trevor Francis
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
garrybaldy
Jan 30 2006, 04:27 PM
thats what it all boils down to the majority of people are trying to get on with their lives **thumbup

spot on

as many will know I can't stand racist and do my best to confront them... anti bnp movement the most recent! I am not some pc do gooder just someone who calls for tolerance and has been bought up to give respect to those who respect me
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
The Concerned Potato Head
Member Avatar
Big Bawss
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
i feel Birmingham has done okay with having a city with mixed backgrounds in comparison to towns like Oldham. where it is a simple ''us against them'' mentality. but are we really more tolerant, or simply too afraid to say racist views because we live in a city where 30% of the population is non-white (a percentage which is still growing). i mean, i have one dude in my class, and he's funny but he's the kinda guy where he says what he thinks, but doesnt think what he says. and in a conversaton, he just happened to use the word P___ . and i just looked at him in bemusement, thinking, if you was chattin to an Asian guy, would you say n____r?

he would never have said P___ in the midst of an Asian. which leads me to ask, do we cowardly say racist words (referring to the 'fan' shouting abuse at a football game a few posts back) when we assume we wont face retribution and assume the next guy wont say anything because he isnt being victimised (Big Ron style)

or are we REALLY a tolerant rainbow society with no beefs, no hatred, no malicious views on other ethnic or religious backgrounds.

i mean i can personally say, i don't think racist views, i don't walk past a White dude and think, ''damn i hate White people'' or walk past an Asian dude and think, ''why don't those Asians speak proper English?''

but...

in a situation where a random Black man, and a non-Black man was hanging off a cliff, and i could only lift one. i would (heartbreakingly) lift the Black guy. and although i feel proper guilty about saying this, to look after our own is a message drummed into us from childhood. does this attitude to a situation make me racist, i mean animals do it after all.

i feel sorry for White folks who are always treading on water with what they say regarding racism, but sometimes the truth needs to be heard.

in my eyes racism is not a valid opinion of another people , it is a tool used to stirr up hatred and to maliciously mistreat eachother, which just aint cool ;)

people like Ron Atkinson could say a million Hail Marys, but people like him ARE racist. he saw Desailly played rubbish, he cudda said that lazy b__tard, or that lazy idiot, 2 phrases which easily roll off the tongue, but instead, he handpicked the term N___ to vent his hateful views, when he KNEW saying b__tard or idiot were far less controversial and offensive. that was a man who CLEARLY had an attitude with non-White people. just cuz he has Black friends doesnt mean he doesnt have 'proper' racist feelings, in fact it makes it worse because he comes into contact with Black people everyday and sees that they're not lazy, thugs and thieves, but actually, nice-well-spoken people aswell. yet when he speaks to Clive ''don't worry Ron, i wont get offended'' Tyldesly he ''backstabs'' the people who he's been working with for how many years. i understand Birmingham was far worse back when the first few of us ''fresh-of-the-boat'' immigrants came up on the shores and that was a time of much animosity between the host and the new communities, a time Big (or should that be Little) Ron would have been bombarded with racism. but he's a man still clearly stuck in his ways, and that stubborness arrorgance was obviously very clear on the night where Monaco faced Chelsea.

he did a documentary on the whole thing didnt he, in Birmingham, Alabama. and he was peeved that Black youth could say the word n__ga. it's not a word i like but what he doesnt understand is that when these people use it, they use it as a term of endearment and kinship. and what he fails to see that when White folks, even when their jokin' usin it, it is still considered offensive because of the unfortunate history of White people using that word (slavery). it's not an unfair double standard, it just that the words history means that it is offensive for one people to say it, and a term of soft affection for another.

and on that note, i switch the channel to watch Simpsons :lol:



Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
mr penguin
Sponsored by Flybe.com
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
The Concerned Potato Head
Jan 30 2006, 06:19 PM
in a situation where a random Black man, and a non-Black man was hanging off a cliff, and i could only lift one. i would (heartbreakingly) lift the Black guy. and although i feel proper guilty about saying this, to look after our own is a message drummed into us from childhood. does this attitude to a situation make me racist, i mean animals do it after all.


I don't get that at all. What does "looking after our own" mean ? For instance, do you feel more kinship to a black guy, whoever he is, wherever he is from, than you do towards a white brummie ?

Of course making a decision like that based on skin colour would make you a racist.

Ron Atkinson is an idiot. I'm glad that he got caught.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
The Concerned Potato Head
Member Avatar
Big Bawss
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
mr penguin
Jan 30 2006, 06:58 PM
The Concerned Potato Head
Jan 30 2006, 06:19 PM
in a situation where a random Black man, and a non-Black man was hanging off a cliff, and i could only lift one. i would (heartbreakingly) lift the Black guy. and although i feel proper guilty about saying this, to look after our own is a message drummed into us from childhood. does this attitude to a situation make me racist, i mean animals do it after all.


I don't get that at all. What does "looking after our own" mean ? For instance, do you feel more kinship to a black guy, whoever he is, wherever he is from, than you do towards a white brummie ?

Of course making a decision like that based on skin colour would make you a racist.

Ron Atkinson is an idiot. I'm glad that he got caught.

what i meant is that if you see a person if you have something in common with you would show more compassion. i mean in a different non race related scenario there's a Blues fan and a Man Utd fan, who would i save, the Blues fan.

and i did not wish to offend of course, nor do i think less of a White/Asian person to a Black person
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
The_Bear
Member Avatar
Gil Merrick
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
personally I would save the nearest.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
The Concerned Potato Head
Member Avatar
Big Bawss
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
The_Bear
Jan 30 2006, 07:19 PM
personally I would save the nearest.

yeah but i would obviously try to rescue both of them. i wouldnt be like,'' meh, forget that non-white dude. as long as the Black dude's alright i'm satisfied'' d'ya know what i mean. i'd be trying to lift them both up until my arms broke off

if i was in that cliff situation, i'd be distraught at being forced to let go of one because i couldnt lift them both.

i guess the main thing is that because Whites folks ar the majority in this country, the minorities tend to bond together and try to fend for themselves ina way.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
garrybaldy
foley okenla, richie moran
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
or the lightest :lol: . Going on from what mr potatohead says about Big Ron, you do have to understand that people of that era are unfortunately stuck in their ways, yes it is no defence but i do understand it, your comments about the cliff scenario let you down a little( not a dig ;) ) you mention animals ,well we are the same animal, that is where sometimes people fail we are not a different species we are the same. At the end of the day As Jassy says i will respect people if they respect me ,regardless of anything
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
KKC
Geoff Horsfield
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Surely the more truthful answer in todays society would be I would save myself ? :(
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
garrybaldy
foley okenla, richie moran
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Yes White people are the Majority, and the Majority of that Majority are people who couldnt give a stuff about your background it is you as a person not your colour, i am sorry if you feel as a minority you feel you have to stick together with your own 'kin', do you feel that in would cause problems
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
The Concerned Potato Head
Member Avatar
Big Bawss
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
true that the cliff comment was a lil' out of touch or poorly explained. but the togetherness of an ethnic minority basically means that we try to look oput for eachother

Tupac famously said after buying clothes from a Black-owned shop after the owner of the small shop said he could have them on the house.

''Naw i'm a support you, this is one of few Black businesses, you're tryin' to earna livin and i respect that, we all gotta take care of one another''

the cliff scenario was undoubtably a regretful thing to say, but that last paragraph was kinda what i WANTED to say and not that i like dropping non-Blacks off cliffs as a few of you may have interpreted :ph43r:

if the black guy off the cliff was a bad person (not that i would know of these theoretical persons) i would save the ''nice'' non-Black guy. because personality means more than colour in my HONEST opinion.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
mr penguin
Sponsored by Flybe.com
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
The Concerned Potato Head
Jan 30 2006, 07:48 PM
not that i like dropping non-Blacks off cliffs as a few of you may have interpreted :ph43r:


:lol: :lol: :lol:
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
alfred E nueman
Member Avatar
Mikael Forssell
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Trying to go back to the original points that Cartoni raised. (And hasn't come back to...but there you go..AGENDA??? ;) )

He has - for his argument, divided Brum into Racially defined areas.

Why not divide it into ECONOMIC areas ? Where people live in the homes they can afford, by mortgage, council or private rent?

Then, you can examine which group of people, black blue or pink are the majority in those areas. Pure twaddle that we have a choice to live amongst "our own".

If a black, blue or pink couple could afford a mortgage in Four Oaks, would they say NO....we are going to stay in Handsworth,Berkeswell or Small Heath?
Would they B****ocks!

It is economic. :D

Newcomers move to where they feel safe, "amongst their own culture", but they develop and move on, work, start businesses, expand, employ others, contribute...but, hopefully keep in touch with their roots.

Two bases in Coventry (as well as Brum) The Tam'O Shanter and the Kerrymans clubs.
Cheek by Jowel together (not too far from Two-Tone records actually, for those of Madness age)....diametrically opposed, religiously,emotionally.....but over 20 years, solid Sky-Blue supporting Coventrians.

BUT, they each keep their own culture. The kids each do the same dances, but with Scots or Irish steps....brilliant.They have their own feast days, carnivals etc etc...

They hurt no one and do not seek to.

The people with browner faces are only 10-20 years down the line, then, who will bother?

Who will bother that some future Lord Mayor's grandmother wore a Burba?

What the hell does it matter??
No one with a brown face is going to take your car, your job, your wife, your dole?

Enjoy the diversity, and be grateful that we have something other than deep fried Mars-Bars as a cultural delicacy... :D :D

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
The Blue Bear
Member Avatar
Mikael Forssell
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Hmmmmm.

I read these recent posts and decided to sit back, and think about what has been written before replying.

I can only conclude that the post by 'The Concerned Potato Head', with regards to saving the Black fella instead of the White fella, again, backs up my theory that we are all, even just a tiny bit, rascist.

I'm sure that you are a nice bloke, you certainly seem to be, and have tried to put accross your honest opions and feelings without trying to upset anyone, and you are to be respected for that.

However, you said it.

That you would choose the black man, as he is one of yours. You would pick him purely on the basis of his skin colour, and that, my friend, is rascism. No matter how you much you attempt to cover your tracks, what you wrote was what you felt, but I wont attack you for it.

From when we are born to when we die, we are all typecast, and it's in our nature, to act in a tribal way.

hmmmmm, more to say on the race issue, but again, I think I'll sit back and gather my thoughts!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
StAndrews4Eva
Member Avatar
Gil Merrick
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I can see where Concerned potato head was coming from. he was simply stating what he feels his instant reaction would be in that situation - although you never know how you would feel until you were there.

As for Ron Atkinson i dont think the era he is from can be used as an excuse. Yes in that day the use of terms such as gollywog and n____a were acceptable, as it was to call black people coloured.

Now all these terms are not acceptable and there has been enough coverage and education to inform people of this.

As for The Blue Bear saying we all have a little part of us that can be classes as racist, i think you may be onto a point. We all have preconcieved ideas about people before we meet them, whether they be from another race, religion, country etc. I think it is in our nature and make up to do that.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
pestcontrol
Unregistered

Whoever needs a glimpse of what is coming our way. just "google" to casual sites like "Islam in Sweden" or "Belgium" or Norway" or "Scandinavia", or why not try this site
http://www.danielpipes.org/
i mean have i been mind controlled or is everybody else living in a fluffy bunny world of everything will be ok?, if its the former i will go to see a shrink and get them tablets that take all worries away.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Cartoni
Garry Pendrey
[ *  *  *  * ]
Just in case anyone thinks (Alfred E) that I started this thread for arguments sake I can assure you that is not true. Genererally when I start a thread I try to make my point as succinctly and clearly as possible and then am happy to observe how it develops without intervening again unless someone says something that has to be answered. I have watched this thread very carefully and been impressed as to how it has progressed and meandered a bit through the subject. it does go to show how an intelligent and passionate debate can be held on something so sensitive without degenerating into abuse and insults ( as it has done before).

I'm grateful to and flattered by those who have praised the thread (and me) and thank everyone who has, so far, expressed an opinion. You never know where a thread like this can go but I'm happy to see that so many really do care about something that will continue to affect us all for a long time to come and to say what you feel without fear.

**thumbup
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
The Concerned Potato Head
Member Avatar
Big Bawss
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
The Blue Bear
Jan 31 2006, 05:45 AM
Hmmmmm.

I read these recent posts and decided to sit back, and think about what has been written before replying.

I can only conclude that the post by 'The Concerned Potato Head', with regards to saving the Black fella instead of the White fella, again, backs up my theory that we are all, even just a tiny bit, rascist.

I'm sure that you are a nice bloke, you certainly seem to be, and have tried to put accross your honest opions and feelings without trying to upset anyone, and you are to be respected for that.

However, you said it.

That you would choose the black man, as he is one of yours. You would pick him purely on the basis of his skin colour, and that, my friend, is rascism. No matter how you much you attempt to cover your tracks, what you wrote was what you felt, but I wont attack you for it.

From when we are born to when we die, we are all typecast, and it's in our nature, to act in a tribal way.

hmmmmm, more to say on the race issue, but again, I think I'll sit back and gather my thoughts!

...i didnt say black guy vs the white dude, i said the black guy versus the NON black dude. if the non-black guy was my best friend, of course i would choose him/her. the first cliff sceneario was about 2 ANONYMOUS people who i've never come across before

i have no ill feelinsg to white people or any other race whatsoever. i have basic morals and value (yes black people have those too!) :lol:

if it was an African-Carribean guy and an African dude, i would pick the African Carribean dude. if it was a Jamaican dude and a Black Brazilain guy, i would help the Jamaican guy first. let me try and flip it so the majority of the forum can relate better, if you saw a white male, being attacked by 2 non-white dudes, who were shouting racist abuse at this one white guy, would you ignore it, or jump in and take part in the ruckus?

how about this..if you saw a chinese guy in the same situation, getting beat up by 2 black guys, who are also shouting racial obscenities to the chinese guy, would you step in like you woud in the first scenario? think about it

the basic fact is, we may all be different coloured leaves from the same tree, but brothers are much closer than cousins this is not to say i still don't have compassion for all peoples.

i think we all need to just look at the birds eye view and realise just what 'racism' is.

is it when a man/women exclusively only has relationships with men/woman of another race, or the other way around and ONLY have releationships with people from the same race as them

is it when a man beats up and robs another person for the colour of his skin?

is it preaching hatred?

an opinion?

is it reacting differently to the way you normally act when surrounded by groups of another background?

personally, when i'm older i would prefer a black wife and black kids, does that make me racist?

in my eyes racism, is refusing to accept a race of people without a legitamate reason...
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tubs2
Paul Tait
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
A very good article on this very subject in todays Guardian: -

Poly Toynbee - Todays Guardian

It argues that the new bill going through parliment today does not protect against racism or hate, but restricts free speach in such a way that it could generate more racism and hate.

Gazza
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
jassyblue80
Member Avatar
Trevor Francis
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Tubs2
Jan 31 2006, 08:27 PM
A very good article on this very subject in todays Guardian: -

Poly Toynbee - Todays Guardian

It argues that the new bill going through parliment today does not protect against racism or hate, but restricts free speach in such a way that it could generate more racism and hate.

Gazza

saw this this morning! thought it was quite apt as the debate raged on here!!

Before you speak or write, ask yourself not only if you intend to abuse and insult, but if you are "reckless" about any insult that may unwittingly be caused to someone somewhere?

this is very worrying
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
pestcontrol
Unregistered

Tubs2
Jan 29 2006, 12:59 PM
DANY
Jan 28 2006, 12:31 PM
I welcome people moving to my area who share similar values and beliefs.

The big problem we have though is that many of the races we have allowed into this country do not share 'british' beliefs and that is a recipe for disaster.  Various governments over the years did not have the sense to stop and think 'are these people suited to britain'

For many years we have allowed anyone into our country judged on their needs and not on what was in the best interests of britain which to me seems rarther insane.

Well done, this is a fine example of the opposite of tolerance that I wrote of in my last post.

Dany, we don't have to be the same. Only you and your chums in the BNP (after all, you are a self confessed BNP voter) who fear something they don't understand see this as a problem.

Gazza

i find it hard to be tolerant against somthing that wishes to promote the extermination,rape,enslavement, to name but a few against christians all under the threat of eternal damnation but maybe thats just me.

in the cliff scenerio i have thought hard and long and hand on my heart i would try to save the guy nearest to me but if it happened to be the white guy the liberals would all cry racist. if both guys were the same distance away but one was built like big daddy i would grab the lighter guy. :D
Quote Post Goto Top
 
jassyblue80
Member Avatar
Trevor Francis
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
pestcontrol
Jan 31 2006, 09:33 PM
Tubs2
Jan 29 2006, 12:59 PM
DANY
Jan 28 2006, 12:31 PM
I welcome people moving to my area who share similar values and beliefs.

The big problem we have though is that many of the races we have allowed into this country do not share 'british' beliefs and that is a recipe for disaster.  Various governments over the years did not have the sense to stop and think 'are these people suited to britain'

For many years we have allowed anyone into our country judged on their needs and not on what was in the best interests of britain which to me seems rarther insane.

Well done, this is a fine example of the opposite of tolerance that I wrote of in my last post.

Dany, we don't have to be the same. Only you and your chums in the BNP (after all, you are a self confessed BNP voter) who fear something they don't understand see this as a problem.

Gazza

i find it hard to be tolerant against somthing that wishes to promote the extermination,rape,enslavement, to name but a few against christians all under the threat of eternal damnation but maybe thats just me.


whats this then? do enlighten me? if you refer to the Koran (Qur’an) then please if you are going to comment read a little closer... not just the sun interpretation?

if you are not talking about the Koran again like i said please enlighten me?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · General Chat · Next Topic »
Add Reply

Forum Design by Hirsty.