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The Uncomfortable Truth About 'racism'; ...Brum is a prime example.
Topic Started: Jan 27 2006, 07:41 PM (2,333 Views)
darenblueblue
Geoff Horsfield
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Firstly, probably the best thread I have read in many a year on a massage board.

Well done! Its made me feel I know you all a lot better and on the whole, what an intelligent bunch!

Turning it round slightly.....

I'm a white guy who lives in Brighton.
I have an Asian (muslim) missus, a Sri Lankan as a best friend and a black pro boxer as my sparring partner. (boxing)
I consider mysef non racist though B_B's thoughts on here did make me think.

Living in Brighton you have to be tolerant of all people and I have no problem with gay people.

However, I was in the gym a few weeks back when a heavily tatooed couple of gay guys got in the sauna.
One of them had a swastika tattooed and covering his own back and racist comments tattooed on each arm.

I know this is slightly off track (and I'm sober) but I thought how strange it was for someone in a minority - even in Brighton! - airing such views clearly and constantly.

Now, if I had taken offence at the tats I would have probably been called homophobic, such is the feeling in Brighton.

If a black, straight, guy had the opposite kind of tats, would he have been allowed in the sauna of would someone have complained?

I'm not sure what I'm really getting at here but it kind of makes sense to me.
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The Concerned Potato Head
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Big Bawss
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a gay guy with a swastika? :blink:
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darenblueblue
Geoff Horsfield
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You get all sorts in Brighton mate....!
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Tubs2
Paul Tait
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jassyblue80
Jan 31 2006, 09:43 PM
pestcontrol
Jan 31 2006, 09:33 PM
Tubs2
Jan 29 2006, 12:59 PM
DANY
Jan 28 2006, 12:31 PM
I welcome people moving to my area who share similar values and beliefs.

The big problem we have though is that many of the races we have allowed into this country do not share 'british' beliefs and that is a recipe for disaster.  Various governments over the years did not have the sense to stop and think 'are these people suited to britain'

For many years we have allowed anyone into our country judged on their needs and not on what was in the best interests of britain which to me seems rarther insane.

Well done, this is a fine example of the opposite of tolerance that I wrote of in my last post.

Dany, we don't have to be the same. Only you and your chums in the BNP (after all, you are a self confessed BNP voter) who fear something they don't understand see this as a problem.

Gazza

i find it hard to be tolerant against somthing that wishes to promote the extermination,rape,enslavement, to name but a few against christians all under the threat of eternal damnation but maybe thats just me.


whats this then? do enlighten me? if you refer to the Koran (Qur’an) then please if you are going to comment read a little closer... not just the sun interpretation?

if you are not talking about the Koran again like i said please enlighten me?

Jassy, you been wondering whose been listening to Nick Griffin too?

Are we going to have to get those Bible quotes out again, to show how Christians should stone rape victims and non believers etc?

Are we going to be just as hateful to Christians if we do?

Or are we going to grow up, and actually look around us and see how Muslims* function in Britian without a problem.

It's easier to take Nick Griffins word I suppose. If you really want to believe it that is.

I wonder if anyone here can name one Muslim they have met who has enslaved, raped or exterminated one Christian in the name of the Koran. Perhaps they know one Christian who has complained of the same? I'm sure they can. Nick Griffin said it happens ll the time.

No?

Gazza

*With the exception of a few idiots. But then there are Christian fundementalists too, why is nobody complaining about them
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mr penguin
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darenblueblue
Jan 31 2006, 10:12 PM
I know this is slightly off track (and I'm sober) but I thought how strange it was for someone in a minority - even in Brighton! - airing such views clearly and constantly.

My knee-jerk, ill-informed & barely considered theory...

The gay community in Brighton is so large & well established that it hardly feels like a minority at all. A Brighton-based gay man therefore might not consider himself as belonging to a minority group & so might not necessarily feel an affinity towards other minorities.

Or he might just think that the tats look butch.
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darenblueblue
Geoff Horsfield
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mr penguin
Jan 31 2006, 10:58 PM
darenblueblue
Jan 31 2006, 10:12 PM
I know this is slightly off track (and I'm sober) but I thought how strange it was for someone in a minority - even in Brighton! - airing such views clearly and constantly.

My knee-jerk, ill-informed & barely considered theory...

The gay community in Brighton is so large & well established that it hardly feels like a minority at all. A Brighton-based gay man therefore might not consider himself as belonging to a minority group & so might not necessarily feel an affinity towards other minorities.

Spot on.

Exactly what I was trying to say, I think!
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Dal78
Geoff Horsfield
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This thread saddened me. It all about harping back to a time that no one can remember because it didn’t exist. We do have things in common with Muslims remember Abraham. Muslims acknowledge Jesus but see him as a prophet not the son of God.

The island of great britton has always been ever moving no different to today. More people are leaving the country that entering but that doesn’t make good news. Think why people are coming to our country. It about providing for your family in most instances but trade barriers don’t allow for this.

People do want to fit in but are made to feel like outsiders. Just remember it was not allthat long ago that the Irish weren’t welcome in this city buy went on to provide the labour that helped build the city. The same can be said for many cultural groups
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pestcontrol
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jassyblue80
Jan 31 2006, 09:43 PM
pestcontrol
Jan 31 2006, 09:33 PM
Tubs2
Jan 29 2006, 12:59 PM
DANY
Jan 28 2006, 12:31 PM
I welcome people moving to my area who share similar values and beliefs.

The big problem we have though is that many of the races we have allowed into this country do not share 'british' beliefs and that is a recipe for disaster.  Various governments over the years did not have the sense to stop and think 'are these people suited to britain'

For many years we have allowed anyone into our country judged on their needs and not on what was in the best interests of britain which to me seems rarther insane.

Well done, this is a fine example of the opposite of tolerance that I wrote of in my last post.

Dany, we don't have to be the same. Only you and your chums in the BNP (after all, you are a self confessed BNP voter) who fear something they don't understand see this as a problem.

Gazza

i find it hard to be tolerant against somthing that wishes to promote the extermination,rape,enslavement, to name but a few against christians all under the threat of eternal damnation but maybe thats just me.


whats this then? do enlighten me? if you refer to the Koran (Qur’an) then please if you are going to comment read a little closer... not just the sun interpretation?

if you are not talking about the Koran again like i said please enlighten me?

how people can compare the bible to the koran is a mystery to me, the bible has the new testament and has undergone many translations and is open to interpretation,Koran was written almost 1000 years after the Old Testament and over 500 years after the new testament and is still in its original arabic, i am not going to start pulling passages from either book to prove a point.

i am only concerned with what has happened recently which is young british born guys blowing themselves up along with innocent victims in our capital city. the president of a country who wants to blow israel of the face of the planet and thinks that he is the mardi, some people think they will have nukes in six months, but i think the article below sums up why things are so peaceful at present.

The dispute ended up in litigation and the Court of Appeal ultimately decided in Ms. Begum's favor. As a result, by law British schools must now accept the jilbab. Not only that, but Prime Minister Blair's wife, Cherie Booth, was Ms. Begum's lawyer at the appellate level. Ms. Booth called the ruling "a victory for all Muslims who wish to preserve their identity and values despite prejudice and bigotry."

By contrast, also in 2004, the French government outlawed the hijab, the Muslim headscarf, from public educational institutions, disregarding ferocious opposition both within France and among Islamists worldwide. In Tehran, protesters shouted "Death to France!" and "Death to Chirac the Zionist!" The Palestinian Authority mufti, Ikrima Sa'id Sabri, declared, "French laws banning the hijab constitute a war against Islam as a religion." The Saudi grand mufti, Abdul Aziz al-Sheikh, called them a human rights infringement. When the "Islamic Army in Iraq" kidnapped two French journalists, it threatened their execution unless the hijab ban was revoked. Paris stood firm.

What lies behind these contrary responses? The British have seemingly lost interest in their heritage while the French hold on to theirs: As the British ban fox hunting, the French ban hijabs. The former embrace multiculturalism, the latter retain a pride in their historic culture. This contrast in matters of identity makes Britain the Western country most vulnerable to the ravages of radical Islam whereas France, for all its political failings, has held onto a sense of self that may yet see it through.
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mr penguin
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@ pestcontrol

I'm not sure whether you really believe all this stuff or whether you are just being outlandish to provoke a response, but let me assume that these are your genuinely held beliefs....

What are you proposing should be done ? If you were Prime Minister for a year what is it that you would do exactly ?
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The Blue Bear
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Mikael Forssell
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Quote:
 
...i didnt say black guy vs the white dude, i said the black guy versus the NON black dude. if the non-black guy was my best friend, of course i would choose him/her. the first cliff sceneario was about 2 ANONYMOUS people who i've never come across before


Apologies, you never said white dude, but that is irrelevant, you still chose the guy with the same skin colour as yourself, that was your initial instinct.


Quote:
 
i have no ill feelinsg to white people or any other race whatsoever. i have basic morals and value (yes black people have those too!) :lol:


I have no reason to doubt you! No worries!


Quote:
 
if it was an African-Carribean guy and an African dude, i would pick the African Carribean dude. if it was a Jamaican dude and a Black Brazilain guy, i would help the Jamaican guy first. let me try and flip it so the majority of the forum can relate better, if you saw a white male, being attacked by 2 non-white dudes, who were shouting racist abuse at this one white guy, would you ignore it, or jump in and take part in the ruckus?

how about this..if you saw a chinese guy in the same situation, getting beat up by 2 black guys, who are also shouting racial obscenities to the chinese guy, would you step in like you woud in the first scenario? think about it


Unfortunately, we live in an age where passers by often turn the other cheek, no matter of colour, race, gender or even age. People these days will more than likely say, "It's nothing to do with me" or "It's none of my business", thats a social problem, and should be discussed as a different topic, I don't see that example as one which is related to this topic, despite the scenario you painted.
A few years ago, as I was walking through the main shopping street in Newport, South Wales, I saw a Bloke beating up his girlfriend, I was about to go over, but another bloke got there first. The girlfriends reaction was not one of thanks or gratitude, she turned and attacked this guy, pulled his hair and scratched his face telling him to F OFF and to mind his own business, he stood shocked, and turned his back on the woman beater, a mistake, as the bloke then got punched from behind. The bloke who was beating up his girlfriend then ran away, whilst the girl ran the other way, the good samaritan was left on the floor with people walking past him, pretending they didn't see anything.

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the basic fact is, we may all be different coloured leaves from the same tree, but brothers are much closer than cousins this is not to say i still don't have compassion for all peoples.


Again, I agree, that that kind of approach, was, is and always will be at the forefront of humankinds mind.


Quote:
 
i think we all need to just look at the birds eye view and realise just what 'racism' is.


Please explain to me whether you view your initial post with the cliff situation as rascist viewpoint/belief or not?

Quote:
 
personally, when i'm older i would prefer a black wife and black kids, does that make me racist?


It's not as simple as that is it? What if you met an asian or white woman and fell in love with her? She's not black, and you wouldn't have black kids with her, would you still commit to the realtionship?


Quote:
 
in my eyes racism, is refusing to accept a race of people without a legitamate reason...


In my eyes it would be rascism even if you had a legitamate reason.
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The Blue Bear
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Mikael Forssell
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Quote:
 
I'm a white guy who lives in Brighton.
I have an Asian (muslim) missus, a Sri Lankan as a best friend and a black pro boxer as my sparring partner. (boxing)


Blimey! I bet it's fun watching the cricket World Cup in your house! **thumbup
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pestcontrol
Unregistered

@ mr pengiun

well first off i would pull all our troops out of this made up war as most of these people dont want democracy, i would make every illegal in this country a british citizen and then i would hold a referendum on immigration as non of the british people were told they were to be part of a experiment and i dont wish to see the laboratory blown up.

i would then hold a second referendum on the eu as when we joined it was all about trade and not losing our right to govern and third i would hold an inquiry on the 147 unelected organisations that say they speak on behalf of the muslim people, "well those ones that mr blair has been sucking up to"

if we were forced into war i would expect every single pearson in the land to recieve the same money as the lowest paid front line troops until the war was over.

and everybody in my political party would have to live for one month with a family from a poor community because i believe these politicians are not living in the real world.

but one things for sure i dont think even i could make such a mess as these idiots are doing.
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jassyblue80
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Trevor Francis
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pestcontrol
Feb 1 2006, 02:36 AM
pestcontrol,Jan 31 2006
09:33 PM
how people can compare the bible to the koran is a mystery to me, the bible has the new testament and has undergone many translations and is open to interpretation,Koran was written almost 1000 years after the Old Testament and over 500 years after the new testament and is still in its original arabic, i am not going to start pulling passages from either book to prove a point.


They are both religious texts that unfortunately some fanatics follow to the word for the gain of evil. You chose to ignore the passages from the old testament (that is still quoted from and referred to in church by the way) as it suites your argument. Like Tubs said why don’t we grow up and realise there is evil all around us, not just Muslim followers… people from all walks of life, religions, race and creed!
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darenblueblue
Geoff Horsfield
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The Blue Bear
Feb 1 2006, 10:03 AM
Quote:
 
I'm a white guy who lives in Brighton.
I have an Asian (muslim) missus, a Sri Lankan as a best friend and a black pro boxer as my sparring partner. (boxing
Blimey! I bet it's fun watching the cricket World Cup in your house!  **thumbup)


I guess this point, although tongue in cheek kind of sums up the 'should people integrate or not?' question.

My missus loves cricket and was as nervous as me watching the Ashes. Supporting England like a good un.

Her Dad, who lives in Brum, was supporting the Aussies because he wanted England to lose.

My Sri Lankan friend was a big England fan and my black mate couldn't give a monkeys as he "doesn't understand the rules".
Boxers eh?!

**thumbup
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pestcontrol
Unregistered

jassyblue80,Feb 1 2006
10:22 AM
pestcontrol,Feb 1 2006
02:36 AM
pestcontrol,Jan 31 2006
09:33 PM
how people can compare the bible to the koran is a mystery to me, the bible has the new testament and has undergone many translations and is open to interpretation,Koran was written almost 1000 years after the Old Testament and over 500 years after the new testament and is still in its original arabic, i am not going to start pulling passages from either book to prove a point.


They are both religious texts that unfortunately some fanatics follow to the word for the gain of evil. You chose to ignore the passages from the old testament (that is still quoted from and referred to in church by the way) as it suites your argument. Like Tubs said why don’t we grow up and realise there is evil all around us, not just Muslim followers… people from all walks of life, religions, race and creed!

i will try to explain,from the very begining, islam knew no seperation of religion and state, or of politics and religion, while in the old testamant a certain division of authority between the king and the priest did exist. in islam, mohammed had unified both aspects in his own pearson, being simultaneously religious and political leader of the first islamic community.

human rights cannot be given priority over islamic law, in spite of the fact that freedom of religion is part of the law in most islamic countries, there constitutions declare islam to be the state religion, it is forbidden for non moslims to insult or disparage islam,repudiation is still considered to be a crime worthy of death,wheras the moslem has the right to proselytize others.

islamic human rights declarations continually insist on the authority of the islamic faith and can therefor only guarantee civil rights which respect islam and its principles. this autimatically restricts the rights of non-moslims so that under islamic law only the moslem can enjoy all rights. non-moslems have reduced rights,but are allowed to exist. the moslem who repudates his faith loses all his rights,for he is considered a traitor to his country and the state and may be subject to the death sentance either under the legal system or by his neighbours. this is emphasised in the "draft for an islamic declaration of human rights" this statement forbids the moslim to ever change his faith. not to condemn a renegade to death would be an offence against the sharia.
phew im glad our politicans are not religious.
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The Concerned Potato Head
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Big Bawss
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i think the main reason as to why the Koran and the Bible are very different is because...

in the bible, you'll see something like, do not steal (and that's under any circumstance DO NOT STEAL)

in the Koran, you'll see something like, do not kill UNLESS it's in the name of Allah. then it's alright.

so you can probbaly understand a little as to why Christians and muslims would react in certain situations.

apologies if i have offended any followers of the religion of Islam :ph43r:
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jassyblue80
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Trevor Francis
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pestcontrol
Feb 1 2006, 12:52 PM
jassyblue80,Feb 1 2006
10:22 AM
pestcontrol,Feb 1 2006
02:36 AM
pestcontrol,Jan 31 2006
09:33 PM
how people can compare the bible to the koran is a mystery to me, the bible has the new testament and has undergone many translations and is open to interpretation,Koran was written almost 1000 years after the Old Testament and over 500 years after the new testament and is still in its original arabic, i am not going to start pulling passages from either book to prove a point.


They are both religious texts that unfortunately some fanatics follow to the word for the gain of evil. You chose to ignore the passages from the old testament (that is still quoted from and referred to in church by the way) as it suites your argument. Like Tubs said why don’t we grow up and realise there is evil all around us, not just Muslim followers… people from all walks of life, religions, race and creed!

i will try to explain,from the very begining, islam knew no seperation of religion and state, or of politics and religion, while in the old testamant a certain division of authority between the king and the priest did exist. in islam, mohammed had unified both aspects in his own pearson, being simultaneously religious and political leader of the first islamic community.

human rights cannot be given priority over islamic law, in spite of the fact that freedom of religion is part of the law in most islamic countries, there constitutions declare islam to be the state religion, it is forbidden for non moslims to insult or disparage islam,repudiation is still considered to be a crime worthy of death,wheras the moslem has the right to proselytize others.

islamic human rights declarations continually insist on the authority of the islamic faith and can therefor only guarantee civil rights which respect islam and its principles. this autimatically restricts the rights of non-moslims so that under islamic law only the moslem can enjoy all rights. non-moslems have reduced rights,but are allowed to exist. the moslem who repudates his faith loses all his rights,for he is considered a traitor to his country and the state and may be subject to the death sentance either under the legal system or by his neighbours. this is emphasised in the "draft for an islamic declaration of human rights" this statement forbids the moslim to ever change his faith. not to condemn a renegade to death would be an offence against the sharia.
phew im glad our politicans are not religious.

haven't read as you need not explain islam or christianity too me ;)

however if you have a good understanding you will know that Changes in
the interpretation and application of the texts are contributing to changes in law etc

for example countries giving women more rights, ebolishment of death penalty... this is in countries where christanity and islam are the main religions
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The Concerned Potato Head
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Big Bawss
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Quote:
 
i think we all need to just look at the birds eye view and realise just what 'racism' is.



Quote:
 
Please explain to me whether you view your initial post with the cliff situation as rascist viewpoint/belief or not?


i believe that it was unfair discrimination. it's not because i find a non-blacks persons life as less valuable than a black persons, certainly not. if i could strike up a conversation with the 2 guys on the cliff, and i found out that the black guy was a complete fanny-head, then i would change my view on who to save first. but in a high-pressure situation where time would be the major limitation. i would just ASSUME that as the African Carribean man would come from the same background as me.



Quote:
 
personally, when i'm older i would prefer a black wife and black kids, does that make me racist?



Quote:
 
It's not as simple as that is it? What if you met an asian or white woman and fell in love with her? She's not black, and you wouldn't have black kids with her, would you still commit to the realtionship?


i would prefer African-Carribean wife and kids because i love my background, i love my heritage, it's something i wish to preserve. i know i cant impose this view on my kids and their grandchildren. but i look at my family now, from my brothers, cousins, aunties and uncles and i wouldnt really want it any other way. i love the food we eat, our sense of humour our attitude to situations, the general culture we have. it's a real ''Soul Food'' kinda family, a real close-knit family. i wouldnt know if i'd like to give this up, it's something very special to me, like how many Asians and Whites will cherish their heritage, food and culture etc.
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StAndrews4Eva
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Gil Merrick
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would prefer African-Carribean wife and kids because i love my background, i love my heritage, it's something i wish to preserve. i know i cant impose this view on my kids and their grandchildren. but i look at my family now, from my brothers, cousins, aunties and uncles and i wouldnt really want it any other way. i love the food we eat, our sense of humour our attitude to situations, the general culture we have. it's a real ''Soul Food'' kinda family, a real close-knit family. i wouldnt know if i'd like to give this up, it's something very special to me, like how many Asians and Whites will cherish their heritage, food and culture etc.

As a white women married to a black man, i agree with everythin you have said about the culture. Even before i was with my hubby i embraced the black culture through friends and previous partners. There is something about it that is very hard to put into words - but it makes you feel at ease.

When me and my hubby do have kids then they will obviously be mixed race but i want them to know all about their black culture as it is not something that they will learn in school. It will be down to my husband and his family to instill this into our children. Before anyone says of course they will be exposed equally to the white culture, traditions, values and food and it will be their choice as to what culture they decided to embrace more than the other. You cant choose for your children.

The Concerned Potato Head - for someone fairly young you seem very articulate in your choose of words **thumbup
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The Concerned Potato Head
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Big Bawss
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thank you. :P


i have a White auntie, and everyone in our family treats her like anyone else in the family and she has adapted to the Carribbean way of living very well


hi Julie! :lol:
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StAndrews4Eva
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Gil Merrick
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The Concerned Potato Head
Feb 1 2006, 03:24 PM
thank you. :P


i have a White auntie, and everyone in our family treats her like anyone else in the family and she has adapted to the Carribbean way of living very well


hi Julie! :lol:

I certainly aint old enough to be your auntie :(
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The_Bear
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Gil Merrick
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Why would you assume from the colour of someones skin that they come from the same culture as you?

I am white, my partner is white, I am British, She is Italian, our cultures are very different.

How do you know from just looking? If a black person has been come from a family that has been in the uk for 200 years is he/she anymore or less British than me?
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mr penguin
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pestcontrol
Feb 1 2006, 10:21 AM
i would hold a referendum on immigration

What would the question be ?
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jassyblue80
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Trevor Francis
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The Concerned Potato Head
Feb 1 2006, 02:33 PM

i would prefer African-Carribean wife and kids because i love my background, i love my heritage, it's something i wish to preserve. i know i cant impose this view on my kids and their grandchildren. but i look at my family now, from my brothers, cousins, aunties and uncles and i wouldnt really want it any other way. i love the food we eat, our sense of humour our attitude to situations, the general culture we have. it's a real ''Soul Food'' kinda family, a real close-knit family. i wouldnt know if i'd like to give this up, it's something very special to me, like how many Asians and Whites will cherish their heritage, food and culture etc.

sounds to me that its the family that you appreciate ;)

sounds a lot like mine (not affro carribean though) I am now engaged to a fantastic women whos father is asian and couldn't be happier!! when you meet the right person you know its the one and nothing else matters

think whats important is the people around you! I don't believe that the race or colour is important as there is good and bad in all walks of life!

any way stay happy my friend **thumbup
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StAndrews4Eva
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Gil Merrick
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The_Bear
Feb 1 2006, 03:33 PM
Why would you assume from the colour of someones skin that they come from the same culture as you?

I am white, my partner is white, I am British, She is Italian, our cultures are very different.

How do you know from just looking? If a black person has been come from a family that has been in the uk for 200 years is he/she anymore or less British than me?

Its not a case of being any less british than the other.

No matter if a black family have been brought up in this country for the last 200 years, one of the 1st things that is taught is the history and roots of black people in this world. Its a forgone conclusion that a black child will be taught these things no matter what.

The majority of black families bring their children up with the same values as each other - there are a lot more differencies in upbringing in white culture than black.
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