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| Blues And Managers | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 2 2006, 12:42 PM (356 Views) | |
| honkybluenose | May 2 2006, 12:42 PM Post #1 |
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Peter Enckelman
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The current board have had 4 Terry Cooper Barry Fry Trevor Francis Steve Bruce Bruce has achieved more than the rest of those before that I can remember Stan Cullis Freddy Goodwin Jim Smith Alf Ramsey Lou Macari ron Saunders to name but a few. Some of these (Cullis,Ramsay, Saunders) won silverware elsewhere. but none of them ultimately did more for Blues than Bruce. some took us up yes.......then we went down again. In fact Bruce has taken us as high in the top division than any of them. To the Bruce is crap brigade a simple question. Is every manager we have had for the last 40 years crap or is the problem more fundamental. I have no particular preference if he stays or goes, but I am sorry history tells me we will get more of the same. What will be different next time? |
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| dr.nick | May 2 2006, 12:45 PM Post #2 |
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Trevor Francis
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but non of them have failed as badly as SB either. ;) |
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| bluess7 | May 2 2006, 12:47 PM Post #3 |
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Frank Worthington
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Are you sure......I don't remember Bruce taking us down to the third tier of english football. |
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| Hooby Groovy | May 2 2006, 12:50 PM Post #4 |
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Frank Worthington
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I think if I could honestly look at the team Steve Bruce has built and say that we were unlucky to go down then perhaps I would agree. But hand on heart? I look at the team and see a group that has too old an average age, is too slow, too predictable and too unfit Add to that their capacity for injuries and you have to say that Bruce has done a bad job, he has taken all the money we had and squandered it. We will recoup some, most has gone for good, and much of it on wages to a group that failed to show the necessary desire to keep the club in the Premier League Thats Steve Bruce's legacy and thats why I think he should go |
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| proccy_blues | May 2 2006, 12:50 PM Post #5 |
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Joe Bradford
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i dont agree mate, the ones who took us up failed in the end as they all did one way or another, but none of them in my living memory had us in 4th place in the top division with 8 games to go......yep we tailed off to finish 10th which, if i recall correctly, equals our highest ever finish - certainly in my life time....apology accepted, but i aint holding my breath...... :P |
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| dr.nick | May 2 2006, 12:55 PM Post #6 |
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Trevor Francis
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that was in a very bad time for us , we neerly whent out of business so there was good reason as to why that happened. under this current board SB is the worst one we have had , after a great start although i think we acctually played the worst football i have ever seen from all his time here, he lost the plot and struggled for the last 2.5 seasons. |
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| Dal78 | May 2 2006, 12:55 PM Post #7 |
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Geoff Horsfield
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Dr nick your post holds no substance. We have been lower than this even in the past few years. Barry Fry said he would get us out of Div 1 what no one realised was he meant to Div 2. TF bottled it year after year in the play offs with SB coming in and showing how to do it. I cannot remember SB moaning like a big baby as TF did at Preston about where the penalties should be taken. Previous managers have all failed to win anything of note and he has finished higher in the top league than many of the previous managers. If you want to make a general statement please back it up with a few facts. |
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| Deleted User | May 2 2006, 12:55 PM Post #8 |
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Not yet, maybe next season. |
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| nick_p | May 2 2006, 12:57 PM Post #9 |
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Kenny Burns
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Name one manager who has been as handsomely backed in the transfer market at Blues as Steve Bruce. But what is relevant about comparing Bruce to past Blues managers? If there has been a legacy of failure at Blues - and much of that has been dictated by the parlous state of the club's finances before our current owners took over - that should not be used as an excuse to let Bruce off the hook. |
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| dr.nick | May 2 2006, 12:59 PM Post #10 |
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Trevor Francis
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your right mate but just look at the dismal performances we have had in the last 2 years. IMO we have never played decent football since he arrived here we were a hard to beat team and he lost it in his final 2 years i was nevr realy convinced he would do anything with us but i never thought he'd take us down. |
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| dr.nick | May 2 2006, 01:01 PM Post #11 |
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Trevor Francis
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of copurse they do the facts are there . buying the wrong type of player , wrong formations wrong tacticks .it's all there you just have to see it. |
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| bluess7 | May 2 2006, 01:03 PM Post #12 |
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Frank Worthington
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I will grant you that he has struggled for the last SEASON and a HALF, but I think there are mitigating circumstances which nobody really seems to hold much store in....... The anti Bruce brigade want to forget all the injuries and pass them off as every day occurences at every club ......but does every club have them to the same magnitude? I also really think he was also let down badly by the board, who in my opinion have never really backed any of the managers fully.......they always look to balance the books. I honestly don't know what the answers are, I just think that he's staying, at least for the time being, and am HOPING he can turn things around |
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| bluess7 | May 2 2006, 01:04 PM Post #13 |
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Frank Worthington
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We have to analyse the facts.......not what might be ! |
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| Dal78 | May 2 2006, 01:07 PM Post #14 |
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Geoff Horsfield
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Name me a manager who has not made a bad buy? Man U and Arsenal do it on a regular basis but they have money to go out again to buy another player. You can talk about tactics and formations but they don’t get put into the history books. On that basis your comment about Bruce failing more than any other manager simply doesn’t hold up. |
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| Wisel | May 2 2006, 01:07 PM Post #15 |
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I think if I could honestly look at the team Steve Bruce has built and say that we were unlucky to go down then perhaps I would agree. But hand on heart? I look at the team and see a group that has too old an average age, is too slow, too predictable and too unfit Pennant, Upson, Sadler, Heskey, Forssel, Johnson Butt, Jarosik, Taylor (either) do not seem to fit your description. Add to that their capacity for injuries and you have to say that Bruce has done a bad job, he has taken all the money we had and squandered it. We will recoup some, most has gone for good, and much of it on wages to a group that failed to show the necessary desire to keep the club in the Premier League In good business terms there is no need to worry about the finances of one of the best and most stable finacially sound clubs in the leagues. Thats Steve Bruce's legacy and thats why I think he should go He should stay until there is a viable and better alternative, good business sense as well |
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| dr.nick | May 2 2006, 01:08 PM Post #16 |
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Trevor Francis
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injuries are only part if it , we have enough quality to keep us up. i would say that alot more was due to mistaks than injuries in reality. all i know is the players he let go and the ones he depended on failed to produce . |
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| Wisel | May 2 2006, 01:09 PM Post #17 |
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Freddie Goodwin and Jim Smith, even Gil Merrick |
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| honkybluenose | May 2 2006, 01:15 PM Post #18 |
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Peter Enckelman
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But if you look at the big picture and the last 40 years all our managers have failed. The highest we have finished in the top league in this time is 10th (twice) so on that basis Bruce is =1st. Some did not have the resources but some did. The likes of smith and goodwin also had the benefit of Don dormans scouting system that gave us a long list of players like francis, latchford, Burns, Gallagher etc. We sold Francis and Latchford for what were at the time RECORD TRANSFER FEES. In todays buying power thats like getting over 20 million each. The money was spent and..............we went down. Failure is not new. All I am saying is that. A) Bruce has achieved as much as any manager over the last 40 years and more than most and B) As some of these were obviously top class managers is there some other factor in this persistant failure OTHER than the manager. |
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| bluess7 | May 2 2006, 01:17 PM Post #19 |
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Frank Worthington
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The trouble I have is: I can see a lot of merit in some of the arguements from those who would like to see him go, I can agree that there were some strange transfer dealings and some dodgy loans. I can also accept that there were some woeful tactical errors last season..... BUT, I just think he is here to stay, I think he has had a rough time of it, and I think that constant threads for "BRUCE OUT" are just falling on deaf ears and ultimeately will achieve nothing. I think he has to be given a chance to learn by his mistakes and get us back up. It's just my opinion....... |
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| dr.nick | May 2 2006, 01:18 PM Post #20 |
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Trevor Francis
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every manager makes a bad buy, but 6 or 7. sutton djc forrsell butt izzet dunn mozza. i put dunn in due to injuries there no good realy if there not fit and you spending your time hopping they get fit. to that theres tiny figrole kuqi coley swichevski gonks althouigh i dont think he was that bad. it's quite clear to me that he has a problem with choseing players to actually play football. his main problem is he can only make a team from hard working defensive players. what i'm trying to say is he wont take us any further to compete at the top due to his mangement style. |
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| dr.nick | May 2 2006, 01:21 PM Post #21 |
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Trevor Francis
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i d'nt intend to turn this into another SB out thread, sorry for that it was just a spur of the moment thing. i do think and i have said before that he will see his contract out . on the other hand sully seems well miffed so we never know. |
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| nick_p | May 2 2006, 01:23 PM Post #22 |
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Kenny Burns
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1. We have struggled for the last two seasons, not one season and a half. Or has everyone forgotten that until we won just two of our opening 16 Premiership games last season? 2. Our injuries cannot be used as an excuse when put down simply to "bad luck". I can only recall one "unlucky" injury this season - Mehdi Nafti's freak injury in Spain. Our other injuries highlight there is something seriously wrong with our fitness and training methods. Players break down, they don't end up carried off after a bad collision. The very fact we have been blighted by serious injury problems for two years now is a damning indictment on the management's inability to either seriously acknowledge there is a problem or to do anything about it. If the training pitches are too hard, why are we training on them? If players aren't taking their warm-up routines seriously enough, why aren't they being disciplined? If we're short of numbers, why does Bruce continue to ignore a player's injury record, Chris Sutton being the latest case in point? Injuries are a key reason why we've been relegated, but that's not bad luck. No team has that much bad luck. Other teams would find out the cause of the problem and fix them - either by taking on new and better fitness staff, or at least by hiring a full-time pyhsio. Until these problems are sorted out we will continue to be blighted by injuries. And when Bruce dismisses them all as bad luck it's obvious he has no intention of digging any deeper, in which case expect us to suffer more "bad luck" next season if he stays. It is the board's job to balance the books. They rewarded Bruce handsomely after we finished tenth, and he squandered the money. As a result our overheads have gone up while revenues have dropped. Other clubs operate under tighter controls than ours, and they continue to survive and even flourish, why can't we do the same? |
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| bluess7 | May 2 2006, 01:41 PM Post #23 |
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Frank Worthington
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From the gist of your post, I gather you are very "Anti-Bruce" ....and you are entitled to your opinion. However, a more intelligent person than I, could pick holes in your arguements as you have mine........ 1. We only lost six of our opening sixteen games last season....or between oct and dec last season we only lost three games in a three month period taking twenty points. 2. your sweeping statement of Nafti's freak injury being the only one to be " unlucky".........I guess you think Matty Upson was really looking to injure himself on the pitch before kick off ?? 3. I agree that it's the boards job to balance the books....but it seems that ours are the only ones in the football league that add all the wages and bonuses into the transfer fee.....they constantly claim Heskey was a 6.25 million buy...... he was not and never will be.....he has cost the club just over 3.0 million, and with relegation, he will not cost much more. I am not on here looking to argue, just put my point across.......but as you can see, clever people can easily manipulate facts to suit their agendas....just look at our board !!!! |
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| nick_p | May 2 2006, 01:58 PM Post #24 |
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Kenny Burns
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Some interesting points, but regarding my "sweeping statement" - where do I suggest that players like being injured as your post suggests? Injuries are injuries, but some are "unluckier" than others. In Upson's case, he broke down before the game began, and not because of a freak collision or accident, either in training or during the match itself. As for the beginning of last season, two wins out of 16 is poor, whichever way you look at it. And the performances were awful too - Everton and Palace at home spring to mind where we showed the initial glimpses of the one-paced, predictable outfit that eventually got relegated. Regarding the Heskey figure, the £6.25m figure was the agreed fee, split over a number of years and based on success. At is turns out, we'll only pay £4.75m for him - the last installment was due around now, but our relegation means it won't have to be paid. At no time have the board ever quoted the figure including wages and signing-on fees for Heskey. You'll find most clubs quote fees in this way. Unfortunately, I can fully understand why the board quote all the extra costs - because too many fans conveniently ignore them. Forssell may have "only" cost £3m from Chelsea, but the total cost of his purchase will be £10m, even if the wages portion of it is spread over however many years his contract runs (of course, if we sold him without receiving a written transfer request he'd be entitled to claim the rest of his contract). This season's wage bill will be close to £30m - a huge amount of money, especially when you consider how much our turnover is (around £45-50m). These facts cannot be buried, however much some people would like to ignore them. Our board's mistake is to lose faith in a manager's transfer judgement without going further and removing him. But then when Bruce spends the entire summer chasing Pandiani and then offloads him at a loss just four months later, what should they think? |
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| bluess7 | May 2 2006, 02:16 PM Post #25 |
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Frank Worthington
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Ok, maybe the phrase "sweeping" was a touch theatrical, but all I was trying to point out was, whilst there seems to be something amiss with the training/physios/hard ground....a lot are just down to bad luck. You can also lay the blame for buying these potential crocks at the managers door, but this is why I believe he will learn from these mistakes and improve. I also think the board come out at the start of the season and say for example: " this years transfer kitty is five milion" when what they actually mean is, Steve can have one million for transfer fees and the other four must cover wages. Remember the Ten million promised player that turned out to be Forsell. On your statement that the board have lost faith in Steve's judgement....... If they have, then it is a monumental error that has cost us dearly and the blame for relegation should be laid squarely at their door.....if they havn't lost faith in his judgement, then again the blame for relegation must be laid at their door for not backing him with at least a couple of proven quality players during the window. As I have said.....I'm not spoiling for a fight, I just think He will learn from it and hopefully get us back......if he doesn't show signs of it early....then he will have to be removed....but I think the board will know that anyway. |
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7:32 PM Jul 11