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Flight Chaos; nightmare scenario
Topic Started: Aug 10 2006, 08:38 AM (642 Views)
proccy_blues
Joe Bradford
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it seems scotland yard have foiled an imminent attempt to blow up several planes in mid-air. it appears the suspects are british born, and were targetting uk to usa flights, so you can draw your own conclusions. i just wanted to say the perpetrators of such despicable deeds should never see the light of day again whether their attempts prove "successful" or not....what earthly reason is there to target innocent civilians, many of whom are anti-war anyway?
rant over, but these people are i think seriously under-estimating the feeling of the general uk public if they think we will keep tolerating these outrageous attacks... :angry:
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BARNETTSrun
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Malcom Page
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rant over, but these people are i think seriously under-estimating the feeling of the general uk public if they think we will keep tolerating these outrageous attacks...

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

all british passport holders
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TJDIXI
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Trevor Francis
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Point of order

There has been no attack today and all that we are going on is 'intellegence' and our great british policeman plod. In recent experience with the Forest Gate saga the two don't sit very well together. I'm more than happy to be proved wrong and i will be happy to be humbled, but i certianly do not have confidence in the threat as stated and i've never been that convinced of the continual threat to our security. Rule by fear is the new politics, true democracy and representation IMO is dead.
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proccy_blues
Joe Bradford
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TJDIXI
Aug 10 2006, 10:10 AM
Point of order

There has been no attack today and all that we are going on is 'intellegence' and our great british policeman plod. In recent experience with the Forest Gate saga the two don't sit very well together. I'm more than happy to be proved wrong and i will be happy to be humbled, but i certianly do not have confidence in the threat as stated and i've never been that convinced of the continual threat to our security. Rule by fear is the new politics, true democracy and representation IMO is dead.

i agree with caution under normal circumstances, but 21 arrests made in london and west midlands of people having been under survellance suggests a little more than guess-work. also, mi5 have been on the highest alert possible since receiving what they call reliable information. call me old fashioned, but i'd rather them take such precautions than sit on a plane with some terrorists rummaging through a rucksack.....
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TJDIXI
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Trevor Francis
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Your right and we should be wary but i'm just concerned that we've been here before since 7/7 and in both cases a gun has been fired after credible intellegence, and both fired at innocent* men. I am worried if this is going to be the new way of policing through guilty until proven innocent.

What worries me the most is that the lessons we should have learnt from the IRA and the way suspects were dealt with then, don't seem to have been learnt.

However all i know is what i read and hear and see in the media so it's not for me to sit in judgement without the full facts and details of the incident. I am still concerned

*i'm taking the later charges imposed on one of the forest gate men aside from this debate
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proccy_blues
Joe Bradford
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fair comments tim, and it may be that there is no threat in the end. you mention 7/7 and the subsequent gun incidents, but don't mention 7/7 in relation to the real bombs that went off and killed real people - having gone through the ira bombs in brum i would hate to look back at mounds of dead people and think someone, somewhere could have prevented it....just a thought **thumbup
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Blues
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Mikael Forssell
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Anybody caught blowing up aeroplanes should be glued back together and shot in my opinion.
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TJDIXI
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Trevor Francis
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The reason i didn't mention the 7/7 bomings was because i feel the sometimes over zealous intellgence is because of that. It's natural though for that to hapen. For example if you child falls off the swings and cracks there head open your going to for a time be wary of your child going on the swings again in case the same thing happens. The truth is that if you let the child go back on the swings the chances of anything happening are most likely less than before the original incident. However you can't look at it like that cause your only and paramount intrest is to protect the child/public.

My concern is that when an incident happens you begin to look more deeply at everything around you and dangers start apearing that may not have been as apprent as before the incident so it is likely that you'll be protective against them without any real need.

I'm also worried by the fact that we do place an awful lot of trust in our police and intellgence and our MP's and forget that they are as human as us and therefore are just as likely to use a situation to empower themselves. Of course the opposite opinion is also true that being as human as us they arejust as likely to not use a situation for there own benefit.

I think my problem is that i've taken too deeper a look into 1984 and a Brave new world, and have tended to look from the devils advocate side too often on topis such as these. However i know that since i was young lad i have never had any real trust in the police becuase of the miners strikes and nothing that has happend recently has made me feel any more confident or trust them any more. The problem being is that power corrupts.
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proccy_blues
Joe Bradford
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power surely does corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely so they say. but who else if not the politicians, professional "spies" and police do we trust in times of dire danger? they're not perfect by any means, but if people are left to their own devices so to speak we're in deep trouble...imo of course
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garrybaldy
foley okenla, richie moran
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Blues
Aug 10 2006, 10:28 AM
Anybody caught blowing up aeroplanes should be glued back together and shot in my opinion.

:laugh: :laugh:
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TJDIXI
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Trevor Francis
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(sorry in addition to my first novel above)

We are told quite often that intellgence has uncovered serious threats to our security, but we are never told what these are. Once in a while a serious threat is then thrown into the limelight and were then all convinced that the serious threats that we have been told about but never told what they were exist, and all because of police raid and a lot of tape.

We then find out that labour party member thrown out of it's confrence is held under the terrorism act, is this the serious threat or is the threats that we are never told fully about greater than this? I'm not convinced that we get to hear anything like the whole truth on so many things and that we are treated too often like proles.
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garrybaldy
foley okenla, richie moran
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Proccy
Aug 10 2006, 10:43 AM
left to their own devices

;)
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TJDIXI
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Trevor Francis
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Proccy
Aug 10 2006, 09:43 AM
power surely does corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely so they say. but who else if not the politicians, professional "spies" and police do we trust in times of dire danger? they're not perfect by any means, but if people are left to their own devices so to speak we're in deep trouble...imo of course

i believe that too often we put an awful lot of trust into very few people and dismiss the views of the masses. If you follow the argument that the real experts are the collective group and not the individual then you'll see that often by trusting those that are held in high regard and dimissing those who are not we could very easily be misplacing our faith.
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Willie
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Willie
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Quote:
 
I'm also worried by the fact that we do place an awful lot of trust in our police and intellgence and our MP's and forget that they are as human as us and therefore are just as likely to use a situation to empower themselves. Of course the opposite opinion is also true that being as human as us they arejust as likely to not use a situation for there own benefit.


Having had to opportunity to see these people actually performing their duties, I think that their approach is about right. they spend hours and hours looking for potential threats. so you and me and everyone else who wants to go about their daily lives in comparative safety. then a few days disruption is a small price to pay, and don't forget they deal with a lot of threats that we never hear about.
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proccy_blues
Joe Bradford
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TJDIXI
Aug 10 2006, 10:49 AM
Proccy
Aug 10 2006, 09:43 AM
power surely does corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely so they say. but who else if not the politicians, professional "spies" and police do we trust in times of dire danger? they're not perfect by any means, but if people are left to their own devices so to speak we're in deep trouble...imo of course

i believe that too often we put an awful lot of trust into very few people and dismiss the views of the masses. If you follow the argument that the real experts are the collective group and not the individual then you'll see that often by trusting those that are held in high regard and dimissing those who are not we could very easily be misplacing our faith.

i wish i understood that.... the problem in this current scenario is, we have a closed group within our society that the rest of us appear to know little about - much less their deadly activities against us. i say again, i'd rather they arrest plenty of people too many and err on the side of caution with the intention of saving lives, than act too late agianst too few people and see the consequences of 9/11 or 7/7. how anyone can suggest we be more tolerant in these times is beyond me. and 1984 was a book, not a passage of history...
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TJDIXI
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Trevor Francis
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Willie
Aug 10 2006, 09:52 AM
and don't forget they deal with a lot of threats that we never hear about.

but thats my point we don't actualy know that they do deal with any threats that we don't hear about/see. We don't actualy know the real severity of this 'apparent' threats, yet we all believe that they happen and that we need to be wary because of them. To be honest i'm happy to be proven wrong because it would go some way towards my trust being reinstalled in the system that we live in/under.
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proccy_blues
Joe Bradford
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TJDIXI
Aug 10 2006, 10:56 AM
Willie
Aug 10 2006, 09:52 AM
and don't forget they deal with a lot of threats that we never hear about.

but thats my point we don't actualy know that they do deal with any threats that we don't hear about/see. We don't actualy know the real severity of this 'apparent' threats, yet we all believe that they happen and that we need to be wary because of them. To be honest i'm happy to be proven wrong because it would go some way towards my trust being reinstalled in the system that we live in/under.

the real dichotomy is that if they didn't deal with them we could have masses of bodies to deal with - but if they are dealing with them in the background people develop cynical views saying they probably invent the threats. its a no-win situation for them really...
i understand your jaundiced view tim, but i cant agree with standing back and letting other people's consciences being responsible for our collective safety...
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bcfc83
Geoff Horsfield
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i have just heard on the news that mr blair and bush both knew about this threat.

IF this is true why did mr blair go on holiday the other day???
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proccy_blues
Joe Bradford
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bcfc83
Aug 10 2006, 11:00 AM
i have just heard on the news that mr blair and bush both knew about this threat.

IF this is true why did mr blair go on holiday the other day???

i dont think he goes via normal airlines, does he?
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bcfc83
Geoff Horsfield
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Proccy
Aug 10 2006, 10:02 AM
bcfc83
Aug 10 2006, 11:00 AM
i have just heard on the news that mr blair and bush both knew about this threat.

IF this is true why did mr blair go on holiday the other day???

i dont think he goes via normal airlines, does he?

i didnt mean it for that reason, i was just saying that surely the PM should be in the country when the country is in a potential crisis situation?
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Willie
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Willie
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TJDIXI
Aug 10 2006, 10:56 AM
Willie
Aug 10 2006, 09:52 AM
and don't forget they deal with a lot of threats that we never hear about.

but thats my point we don't actualy know that they do deal with any threats that we don't hear about/see. We don't actualy know the real severity of this 'apparent' threats, yet we all believe that they happen and that we need to be wary because of them. To be honest i'm happy to be proven wrong because it would go some way towards my trust being reinstalled in the system that we live in/under.

What would you have them do have a weekly ad in the national press, giving out the details. I am sure the people who attempt to bomb planes etc would be really pleased if they did...... sorry that was uncalled for but you get my meaning, they work on a need to know basis, if we need to know we will be told. otherwise it would be a case of "familiarity breeds contempt" and no one would take any threat seriously.

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proccy_blues
Joe Bradford
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bcfc83
Aug 10 2006, 11:03 AM
Proccy
Aug 10 2006, 10:02 AM
bcfc83
Aug 10 2006, 11:00 AM
i have just heard on the news that mr blair and bush both knew about this threat.

IF this is true why did mr blair go on holiday the other day???

i dont think he goes via normal airlines, does he?

i didnt mean it for that reason, i was just saying that surely the PM should be in the country when the country is in a potential crisis situation?

he was aware the crisis would (probably) be averted - maybe he trusts the powers that be to do their jobs? i know i do...
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TJDIXI
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Trevor Francis
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Proccy
Aug 10 2006, 10:00 AM
TJDIXI
Aug 10 2006, 10:56 AM
Willie
Aug 10 2006, 09:52 AM
and don't forget they deal with a lot of threats that we never hear about.

but thats my point we don't actualy know that they do deal with any threats that we don't hear about/see. We don't actualy know the real severity of this 'apparent' threats, yet we all believe that they happen and that we need to be wary because of them. To be honest i'm happy to be proven wrong because it would go some way towards my trust being reinstalled in the system that we live in/under.

the real dichotomy is that if they didn't deal with them we could have masses of bodies to deal with - but if they are dealing with them in the background people develop cynical views saying they probably invent the threats. its a no-win situation for them really...
i understand your jaundiced view tim, but i cant agree with standing back and letting other people's consciences being responsible for our collective safety...

to be honest it's not so much a view, more of an ideal. When it comes down to the real nitty gritty of staying alive and so on then i'm just the same as the next person and would not want any harm to come upon anyone that could have been avoided, but what i do worry about is become to reliant on the nanny state and trusting some one without question.

If it was advice that i'm preaching then i'd use the line "don't believe all that you read, see or hear. Look beneath the covers and under the bed before jumping in"
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Willie
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Willie
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TJDIXI
Aug 10 2006, 11:08 AM
Proccy
Aug 10 2006, 10:00 AM
TJDIXI
Aug 10 2006, 10:56 AM
Willie
Aug 10 2006, 09:52 AM
and don't forget they deal with a lot of threats that we never hear about.

but thats my point we don't actualy know that they do deal with any threats that we don't hear about/see. We don't actualy know the real severity of this 'apparent' threats, yet we all believe that they happen and that we need to be wary because of them. To be honest i'm happy to be proven wrong because it would go some way towards my trust being reinstalled in the system that we live in/under.

the real dichotomy is that if they didn't deal with them we could have masses of bodies to deal with - but if they are dealing with them in the background people develop cynical views saying they probably invent the threats. its a no-win situation for them really...
i understand your jaundiced view tim, but i cant agree with standing back and letting other people's consciences being responsible for our collective safety...

to be honest it's not so much a view, more of an ideal. When it comes down to the real nitty gritty of staying alive and so on then i'm just the same as the next person and would not want any harm to come upon anyone that could have been avoided, but what i do worry about is become to reliant on the nanny state and trusting some one without question.

If it was advice that i'm preaching then i'd use the line "don't believe all that you read, see or hear. Look beneath the covers and under the bed before jumping in"

So perhaps we should always ask for a second opinon. when these incidents occur
;)
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TJDIXI
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Trevor Francis
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Great debating there lads and lasses. That's got my grey matter working this morning and i'm hoping it's helped me complete the Guardian Crossword in record time also.
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