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Comparison With 2002 Promotion Squad; Pt 1 - Goalie and right back
Topic Started: Nov 9 2006, 08:42 AM (360 Views)
beegeeblueboy
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Bob Latchford
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Interesting to do this in the light of the Liverpool game as I thought there was a bigger gap between us and them now than when we were competing against Prem teams in 2002 and earlier. This will also indicate if we are in a better position to go up now then then.

Maik Taylor v Nico Vaesen

Maik is clearly much better. Comes off his line more; commands the area and has fine handling. He is a better shot stopper too but Nico was not that far behind. Maik is probably the poorer kicker. Throwing the ball out is / was not done much by either.

Stephen Kelly v Jeff Kenna

Jeff was pure class as many years in the Premiership and a league title medal would suggest; great going forward and strong in the tackle, linked very well with those around. His age didn't affect him in the second tier. Stephen Kelly poses the question how did he ever make the Spurs first eleven? He is our least able right back since before Gary Rowett. Looks uncomfortable but perhaps he needs a good wide right player in front of him to link up with, something we are missing. He looks as if he will struggle in the Premiership


To be continued ...
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bornblues64
Mikael Forssell
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Agree entirely with your first comment we have gone alarmingly backwards in a short space of time, last night confirmed it. Its a good job this season the Coca Cola league is so poor or in my humble opinion we would be struggling to keep pace, just wish people would realise that Bruce is a one trick pony, he can produce battling sides (when he wants) but thats about it,

But dont worry one of wor big players is back soon :laugh:
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proccy_blues
Joe Bradford
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very interesting beegee, and at that time sb seemed to have a knack for attracting decent players slightly past their prime but still capable. as an example, the season after we sold kenna to derby i watched him a few times and he was awful - no pace, missing tackles and looked out of his depth. the derby crowd absolutely slaughtered him every week. i felt bad about that, he was good for us i thought... :(
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PartisanBCFC
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Jack Wiseman
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You can go through the team to compare players to players

I was never a great lover of Geoff Horsfield but at least with 'The Horse' you got passion and fight in every game.........I'm actually starting to miss the guy,never thought I'd ever say that

Would still like to see Damien Johnson at right back TBH

I think the left back position has always been a 'thorn' but Sadler is just inconsistent....much like Bryan Hughes who was a cracking player on his day

We did well in the PL in 2003 and 2004 because our back four was solid (mainly down to the very good partnership of Cunningham and Upson) and we had a runner like Robbie Savage who gets 'in the face' of opponents....much as I dislike the guy these days we NEVER replaced him

I know I keep saying this but this is another valid reason for a change of manager and direction.........Bruce has simply not only lost the plot.....he has lost all direction

Kenny C wasn't joking then when he said the club had NO soul and at training no-one really knew what they were doing or supposed to be doing.......With a new guy at the helm I'm convinced players like McSheffers,Sadler and Jerome would bloom

The right side of midfield has always been a problem too......DJ did OK for a while,Gronkjaer was rubbish and TBH I thought Pennant was vastly over rated and we did well to squeeze 7 million out of Liverpool......luckily on the left we have McSheff (successor to Lazaridis who was a superb left winger) and as for Julian Gray....well if I was paid at work based on the effort this guy puts in I'd find myself unemployed after a couple of hours

What I just can't fathom out is that many fans complain about the stick Bruce gets yet look at the unfair abuse aimed at the likes of Heskey,Dugarry and Dunn in the past (the three of them were/are very good footballers ) ..........It's TRUE.....we are own worse enemies

KRO
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proccy_blues
Joe Bradford
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not wishing to argue partisan, but i don't fully agree with your summary over the left-back position. i thought we had it well covered until grainger's injury and subsequent retirement, and it's only really been a problem since then. i also didn't think clapham was a "bad" left back although i accept i'm probably in the minority over that one!!
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bornblues64
Mikael Forssell
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proccysotv
Nov 9 2006, 09:07 AM
not wishing to argue partisan, but i don't fully agree with your summary over the left-back position. i thought we had it well covered until grainger's injury and subsequent retirement, and it's only really been a problem since then. i also didn't think clapham was a "bad" left back although i accept i'm probably in the minority over that one!!

Agree about Clapham, as long as you have a worker in front of himie Lazaridis he is fine, really cant see why we got rid of him. He was good cover at least.
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cotswold chris
Steve Claridge
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Its funny but this thoughjt ocurred to me last night too. It was my first time back at st andys after that terrible game in October 2005 vs the Boro when I first realised that we were headed for the rocks.

For the big plus points vs last season are youth, enthusiasm, a willingness to play the ball out of defence, and a desire to start attacks quickly. It used to do my head in watching Taylor kick possession away so often.

Also I noticed that the lads were talking to each other much more and encouraging each other during the game. Seemed to be playing with a smile on their faces( except that wasteof space Gray). It was very good to see after Nicky "Sourface" Butt and co last year.

But last night we were still not passing the ball to feet through the middle- admittedly against a pretty solid Liverpool central defence and a very experienced midfield. Liverpool were clearly only ever in second gear, even with a reserve team, and were quite comfortable, especially in the second half. Bellamy wasted at least three golden chance and I cant rememeber us having more than on eor two in the hwol game. Did Dudek ever have to make a save?

Bruce still doesn't seem to take any tactical notes during the game , or consult much with his coaches, although Eric Black did seem to be taking notes quite a lot.

Man for man we might be a little better than the team which came up back in 2003. But we had King Kenny and Upson then, and Savage in the middle. Tiny and Jaidi would be slaughtered for pace in the Prem I reckon, and the jury is still out on the midfield I suppose.

But Mcsheffrey looked bright and lively and the Arsenal lads on loan are obviously footballers. We should enjoy them while we can

I enjoyed last night and all in all I am hoping for a successful, enjoyable season.-- Hope springs eternal in us bluenoses- it has to!!!!!
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SimonBCFC
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Mike Skinner
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I will just comment on these two players seeing how your going to post up other comparisons in a different post it seems.

Maik Taylor is clearly better than Vaesen, I was a big fan of Vaesen tbf but i think Taylor shot stopping, his much improved collecting and catching makes up for his weak kicking.

Jeff was a class act for an old timer, I think kelly is still unproven to me but had the potential to be better than Kenna, but at this current time I would take Kenna in the right back spot

next 2 please.... :)
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Wisel
Unregistered

Just for anyone who is struggling to remember the promotion squad in 2001~2 season.

Ian Bennett
Nicki Eaden
Martin Grainger*
Danny Sonner
Darren Purse
David Holdsworth
Jon McCarthy
Marcelo
Geoff Horsefield*
Bryan Hughes
Stan Lazaredis*
Darren Carter
Graham Hyde
Curtis Woodhouse
Jerry Gill*
Tommy Mooney
Michael Johnson*
Nico Vassen*
Andrew Johnson*
Jacques Williams
Tresor Luntala
David Burrows
Christopher Ward
Dele Adebola
Paul Furlong
Ross Diamond
Tony Capaldi
Joey Hutchinson
Steve VickerS
Stern John
Paul Devlin*
Damien Johnson*
Tommy Williams
Olivier Tabily*

I've put a star against those who woul;d compete with todays squad. Current sqaud far far better than this one IMO.
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cotswold chris
Steve Claridge
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Wisel
Nov 9 2006, 10:41 AM
Just for anyone who is struggling to remember the promotion squad in 2001~2 season.

Ian Bennett
Nicki Eaden
Martin Grainger*
Danny Sonner
Darren Purse
David Holdsworth
Jon McCarthy
Marcelo
Geoff Horsefield*
Bryan Hughes
Stan Lazaredis*
Darren Carter
Graham Hyde
Curtis Woodhouse
Jerry Gill*
Tommy Mooney
Michael Johnson*
Nico Vassen*
Andrew Johnson*
Jacques Williams
Tresor Luntala
David Burrows
Christopher Ward
Dele Adebola
Paul Furlong
Ross Diamond
Tony Capaldi
Joey Hutchinson
Steve VickerS
Stern John
Paul Devlin*
Damien Johnson*
Tommy Williams
Olivier Tabily*

I've put a star against those who woul;d compete with todays squad. Current sqaud far far better than this one IMO.

Very interesting post Wisel.

Yep- I reckon you are right, and the current lot are mainly young players who will only get better, whereas the promotion team was ageing.

But Bruce bought fantastically well during the summer that year and brought in Kenny, Savage, Cisse and Morrison ( who had his moments).

He also repeated the magic in the transfer window in January. Dugarry and Upson were the star signings I suppose, and both Clemence and Clapham have always been under rated in my book.

After last year's debacle would he be able to pull off the same trick again?
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mr penguin
Sponsored by Flybe.com
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The squad should be much better than in 2002 as they are hugely more expensive.
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Blueshrew
Steve Claridge
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bornblues64
Nov 9 2006, 08:48 AM
Agree entirely with your first comment we have gone alarmingly backwards in a short space of time, last night confirmed it. Its a good job this season the Coca Cola league is so poor or in my humble opinion we would be struggling to keep pace, just wish people would realise that Bruce is a one trick pony, he can produce battling sides (when he wants) but thats about it,

But dont worry one of wor big players is back soon :laugh:

In the promotion season of 2001 – 2002 after 16 games we had 26 points and were 6th compared with this season 30 points and sitting 4th

2001 – 2002 season after 16 games

Wolves (Dave Jones) 34 points Stayed down
Man City 27 points Promoted
WBA 26 points Promoted
Blues 26 points Promoted
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adamneaves
Frank Worthington
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imho i personally think kelly is better than kenna
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PartisanBCFC
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Jack Wiseman
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Blueshrew
Nov 9 2006, 10:24 AM
bornblues64
Nov 9 2006, 08:48 AM
Agree entirely with your first comment we have gone alarmingly backwards in a short space of time, last night confirmed it. Its a good job this season the Coca Cola league is so poor or in my humble opinion we would be struggling to keep pace, just wish people would realise that Bruce is a one trick pony, he can produce battling sides (when he wants) but thats about it,

But dont worry one of wor big players is back soon :laugh:

In the promotion season of 2001 – 2002 after 16 games we had 26 points and were 6th compared with this season 30 points and sitting 4th

2001 – 2002 season after 16 games

Wolves (Dave Jones) 34 points Stayed down
Man City 27 points Promoted
WBA 26 points Promoted
Blues 26 points Promoted

Your stats don't mean a thing

The final table in May is the one that counts
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Lucky
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Bob Latchford
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good point about the full backs,
a good full back needs a good player in front of him,
and to prove that point ,where would gary rowett be if jon mc carthy was not there to do the donkey work for him,,
maybe there is a message in there for brucie,
i think kelly is a good player but seems to be becoming the fans guy to have a moan at right now,.
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PartisanBCFC
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Jack Wiseman
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Lucky
Nov 10 2006, 07:14 AM
good point about the full backs,
a good full back needs a good player in front of him,
and to prove that point ,where would gary rowett be if jon mc carthy was not there to do the donkey work for him,,
maybe there is a message in there for brucie,
i think kelly is a good player but seems to be becoming the fans guy to have a moan at right now,.

Kelly won't have to worry about the moaners as long as that 'waste of space in a Blue shirt' Julian Gray is in the team

Once Upson comes back I think we will be OK defensively and Sadler's only problem is his consistency...he's also had some outstanding games this season

Damien Johnson,when fit could make a very good right back

If we can't depend on Nafti,Dunn or Kilkenny to all stay fit together then we certainly need another midfielder in the Transfer Window as well as another striker now that The Forse has been crocked again

David Nugent of Preston or Matt Fryatt of Leicester would be obvious targets

But of course,no doubt Mr Bruce will be after another kid from the factory shop floor who scores six for his Sunday morning pub side .........and shell out a million in the process

Lord help us
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proccy_blues
Joe Bradford
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so when do we see part 2 onwards???
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block23steve
Geoff Horsfield
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I'd like to dispel this myth (in my opinion) that is going around saying Maik Taylor is a poor kicker.

Yes, this season he has kicked poorly at times - but i have always felt that Maik kicks it really well. All through our times in the Prem i can count on the one hand the number of really poor kicks that Maik made. He's been very reliable in my opinion until this season - this season he has struggled at times, for whatever reason, i don't know - but t just say "he's a poor kicker" is wrong in my opinion. This season , yes, but i've always thought he kicked a good ball in previous seasons.

feed.back
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Wisel
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block23steve
Nov 10 2006, 09:29 AM
I'd like to dispel this myth (in my opinion) that is going around saying Maik Taylor is a poor kicker.

Yes, this season he has kicked poorly at times - but i have always felt that Maik kicks it really well. All through our times in the Prem i can count on the one hand the number of really poor kicks that Maik made. He's been very reliable in my opinion until this season - this season he has struggled at times, for whatever reason, i don't know - but t just say "he's a poor kicker" is wrong in my opinion. This season , yes, but i've always thought he kicked a good ball in previous seasons.

feed.back

The fact that some posters can knock such a brilliant keeper as Maik says it all really.
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bornblues64
Mikael Forssell
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Fact is if it wasnt for Taylor we would possibly have 8-9 points less than we have now, saved us against the Baggies and Plymouth imo, and thats just two games that spring to mind.
Best goalie down here for a number of years, thats why hes an international.
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proccy_blues
Joe Bradford
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block23steve
Nov 10 2006, 08:29 AM
I'd like to dispel this myth (in my opinion) that is going around saying Maik Taylor is a poor kicker.

Yes, this season he has kicked poorly at times - but i have always felt that Maik kicks it really well. All through our times in the Prem i can count on the one hand the number of really poor kicks that Maik made. He's been very reliable in my opinion until this season - this season he has struggled at times, for whatever reason, i don't know - but t just say "he's a poor kicker" is wrong in my opinion. This season , yes, but i've always thought he kicked a good ball in previous seasons.

feed.back

:applause: :applause:
he isn't the best kicker in fairness imo, but he's way better than average. so much so that it is obvious when he does bad ones it's so unusual.... ;)
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monkey78
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IMO. (going on our regular teams 01/02 (bruces) and 06/07)

Vaesen loses to Taylor

Kenna beats Kelly
Grainger beats Sadler
Purse beats Jaidi
Johnno beats Taylor (but not Upson)

Hughes Loses to Sheff
DJ draws with DJ ;)
O'connor beats Muamba
Carter loses to Clemence

The Horse beats Jerome
Marcelo loses to Bednter


So I see it as 6-4 to the 01/02 team.

Our squad has loads more depth tho now so all in all ther isnt a lot in it. And before people say what about AJ he was never really a first choice and never scored either.


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proccy_blues
Joe Bradford
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monkey78
Nov 10 2006, 01:47 PM
AJ was never really a first choice and never scored either.

but he was a nice bloke.....
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Albert T
Jose Dominguez
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The squad is better this time round, but only just and arguably by not enough considering we've just come out of the premiership and spent more money this time around. But whilst man for man we're better off there just isn't the spirit in the squad and that I fear maybe our undoing this time. We also dare I say it had a manager then who was fresh and unbitten by failure who seemed to instil confidence into what was in truth a fairly average team and got them playing beyond their abilities through pure self-belief and a never say die attitude.
Not only did he shrewdly bring in players like John and Tebily and introduce Carter, players who are mainly derided now but who were invaluable in the promotion run-in, but he also quickly got the best out of players of the ilk of Stan and The Horse.
In all honesty the team that got us up wasn't as even as good as one TF assembled around 98-99 but made up for it by sheer guts, hard work and determination managed by a good young manager with fresh ideas and his best years seemingly still ahead of him.

Simply, yes we have better players but sadly also now we have a manager who has gone stale and doesn't seem to be able to get the best out of them. This has in turn led to the spirit around the club to evaropate and be replaced by apathy.

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