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Blues Board And Manager Resign En Masse
Topic Started: Nov 11 2006, 11:06 AM (1,174 Views)
tevets
Geoff Horsfield
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Bluefan
Nov 11 2006, 08:21 PM
Unfortunately some perverted souls have an inflated opinion of their own abilities and seem to bolster their status by being destructive in their criticism.

No sense of reality. No acknowledgement of achievement. Just sad people. KRO!

I fully agree but it still doesn’t take peoples right away to complain should they so wish. The only way to truly silence critics is to provide a product and service beyond reproach.

Yes you will still get a few who will argue black is white and night is day but you don’t get the level of discontent we have seen with a quality product.
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Forward62
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Malcom Page
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The club goes under and AFC Small Heath Alliance rises from the ashes
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Wisel
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I like the Small Heath Alliance Group title, much as I like the victory sign title of F C United of Manchester.
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Wisel
Unregistered

tevets
Nov 11 2006, 08:44 PM
Wisel
Nov 11 2006, 07:16 PM
Unlike the knockers and moaners, I absolutely would. I support any and anyone who is at the helm at Blues, for heavens sake I even supported Ron Saunders. Pity the knockers cannot see the sense of that stance. We would be so much better off is they did.

If, for want of an example, you have been going to a restaurant for a long time but it has steadily being going downhill for a while would you just accept as readily complaining or boycotting is bad and keep going regardless? I would be surprised if you said yes, and genuinely meant it.

Football is, probably, more loyalty based than your favourite restaurant but still there has to come a point when you question what is happening and not just blindly follow loyally along in the hope things get better. In my view everyone has the right to do whatever they, legally, feel like. If that is complaining then so be it.

If the club doesn’t like that then it is up to them to do something about it to win the disenfranchised support back.

By the way what has your ‘stance’ and the way we have generally supported Blues, without complaint, ever achieved? Maybe a change of attitude from the supporters can make a difference. Sitting back without complaint hasn’t done much for the trophy cabinet.

Restaraunts are not on my support till you die list ~ totally different, absolutely totally different.

A better analogy would be ~ My daugheter has been doing OK, had a good three years where she was appearing to really make good strides into a new dimension of her carrer and family life, then she hit a brick wall, got into all sorts of difficulties, some of her own errors some of things out of her control. Would I walk away from her, would I criticise her, would I abuse her every attempt to do anything, would I even keep having a go at her when she was showing signs of a good recovery and the displaying the strength to overcome her adversities? Well the answer is obvious, for me at least.

For me BCFC is family, is my belief, is with me for ever. For you, and maybe others it is one of a thousand rertaraunts you could choose to eat at.

Maybe you have just defined the actual problem very well.
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Joe
Geoff Horsfield
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Sullivan and the Golds have had their £7 million loans paid back to them already. Two or three seasons ago I believe. They are paying themselves dividends, the club is making profit.
This is a pretty pointless post. All hypothetical
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mr penguin
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gazbcfc
Nov 11 2006, 11:06 AM
David Sullivan and the board have pulled out of Birmingham City .... come on then - what happens now -

Oddbins report an upsurge in champagne sales to the penguin household :drink:
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gazbcfc
Ian Bennett
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Joe
Nov 12 2006, 10:37 AM
All hypothetical

duurrrr! its meant to be hypothetical - thats the idea of the post!
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tevets
Geoff Horsfield
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I didn’t want to bring up personal or family analogies for fear of causing offence. However, as you have done so, in terms of the said daughter I of course would continue to support her, as I do the Blues, but I would not just sit back idly while she kept repeating the same mistakes.

Obviously you feel the ‘daughter’ is further on the road to recovery than I do. For me we still have most of the same issues which have never been fully addressed. Hence the continued unrest and negativity surrounding the club. Until the fundamental issues have been addressed the ‘daughter’ / club will continue to be shrouded it despair.

The main difference between you and I Wisel appears to be you are happy to tinker, sit back and hope things improve whereas I am more I see a problem and as far as possible I find a solution that solves all of the issues to minimise any chance of a reoccurrence. My way is possibly more painful but offers a shorter, more controlable recovery time.
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chilternblue
Ian Bennett
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No need to worry gaz i'll be taking over next week when i've won the euromillions. :D
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Wisel
Unregistered

tevets ~ If you want to know whther I like to sit back and tinker, ask, or even ask someone who knows me. You don't need to assume. You couldn't be further from the truth. However, I do have an eye for how things work. If it needs revolution then go for it, if it needs evolution go for that, if it needs people development rather than their replacement use that tactic. But whoever you are, you need to assess from all of the alternative courses of action before blindly choosing the revolutionary method. It si the one most favoured becasue people get disatisfied, and a typical immediate reaction is 'change everything', it is very rarely the right course of action.

However, I would be interested in the detail of your solution, mayve we are closer than you think.
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salad_dodger
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Paul Tait
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gazbcfc
Nov 12 2006, 11:20 AM
Joe
Nov 12 2006, 10:37 AM
All hypothetical

duurrrr! its meant to be hypothetical - thats the idea of the post!

he got the pointless bit right though :)
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tevets
Geoff Horsfield
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Wisel
Nov 12 2006, 01:21 PM
tevets ~ If you want to know whther I like to sit back and tinker, ask, or even ask someone who knows me. You don't need to assume. You couldn't be further from the truth. However, I do have an eye for how things work. If it needs revolution then go for it, if it needs evolution go for that, if it needs people development rather than their replacement use that tactic. But whoever you are, you need to assess from all of the alternative courses of action before blindly choosing the revolutionary method. It si the one most favoured becasue people get disatisfied, and a typical immediate reaction is 'change everything', it is very rarely the right course of action.

However, I would be interested in the detail of your solution, mayve we are closer than you think.

In my view, and I will be as brief as possible, it is too late for an easy fix to our problems.

There are a number of factors in the decline of the club and dissatisfaction of the supporters. 18 months ago it was obvious we were struggling, 12 months ago it was obvious our Prem status was in jeopardy. In January it was obvious immediate action was required to stave of disaster. Throughout that time the board and management did nothing to address the fundamental problems at the club which would have addressed the slide.

This meant when relegation was confirmed a lot of supporters lost faith in the ability and ambition of the club. They also took the summer to reflect at what had happened and what was about to happen and did not like what they were seeing. Even during the summer the board could have reduced the depression and resentment relegation would inevitably bring with some simple steps.

They should have publicly come out and apologised to the fans over the way they had run the club, even if that was only lip service. Instead we had a few half hearted statements and a blame culture to try and deflect from the real issues. We also had a lot of promises of how things would improve, how we would keep the basis of the squad to ensure promotion this season etc. only for most of it to be reneged on, thus losing more credibility.

To exasperate the poor running of the club the board continued to treat the fans as cash dispensers and tried to justify prem prices for inferior product.

Regardless of your opinion of Bruce a new manager would have united the supporters, anti would have been happy pro would have accepted it after relegation, and allowed time for the new team to settle. It would certainly have reduced the pressure, scrutiny and expectations on the playing side.

By doing nothing the board have now made a rod for their own backs. The only way they are going to remove the negativity and increase the gates is by proving their intentions because you can no longer trust their word.

In my view the fundamental problems at the club are the disregard the board seems to have for the supporters, the tactically inept management and the blame culture to deflect the real blame.

Only a personal opinion but as things stand now rather than coming out with the ridiculous statements Sullivan has, and to blame the very supporters the club needs, the board needs to totally change the tactic for dealing with the supporters. They need to understand why the fans are not happy and make statements designed to win back confidence.

A good start would be to fully admit to the mistakes that have been made and stop keep blaming the supporters for the current atmosphere and problems. When they do make a statement they should stick to it, the only way people will start to believe them again. It would also help to actually reveal an action plan of what they expect from the club and manager and the consequences for not achieving the targets. Give the supporters some indication of their ambition.

The playing side needs to be overhauled. Winning is great but the football is poor and certainly doesn’t make you want to come and spend best part of £30 to watch. Whatever the ‘true’ supporters think we need a full house to regain an atmosphere and have the finances to meet ambition. This means looking at the whole experience and frankly the level of entertainment does not warrant the price. Although it would be another climb down the board need to have a rethink on pricing, even if that means a refund to current season ticket holders.

As to the manager again the board have made things difficult for us and Sully’s latest statement is a kick in the teeth to the large, unhappy section of the supporters. To more or less say Bruce’s will never be sacked regardless of performance and to indicate the decision is based on personality rather than performance is a disgraceful way to run the club. To appease the fans there has to be something that would trigger a change in management. Personally that would be in contention for promotion in January and promotion at the end of the season, failure to meet either target should result in Bruce’s departure.

Finally what is now needed is all of the above plus time. The longer it takes for the measures to be put into place the longer the healing process will take.

You notice I don’t call for Bruce to be sacked now, even though in my opinion he does not deserve this latest chance. In some ways that would help but the club has again backed itself into a corner, a change of manager now may do more harm than good but failure to deal with the situation effectively, as in sack him, during the next slump will result in even more disillusioned supporters.

This is only a very ‘brief’ synopsis as this was getting ridiculously long. However, until the board really understand and accept the reasons for the unrest nothing will move forward. The more bullish they get with their statements the more fans they will alienate.
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mr penguin
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:applause: excellent post tevets
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Wisel
Unregistered

If this is brief, I wouldn't want to read apost from you when you have time on your hands.


In my view, and I will be as brief as possible, it is too late for an easy fix to our problems.



This is only a very ‘brief’ synopsis as this was getting ridiculously long. However, until the board really understand and accept the reasons for the unrest nothing will move forward. The more bullish they get with their statements the more fans they will alienate.[/QUOTE]
There are a number of factors in the decline of the club and dissatisfaction of the supporters. 18 months ago it was obvious we were struggling, 12 months ago it was obvious our Prem status was in jeopardy. In January it was obvious immediate action was required to stave of disaster. Throughout that time the board and management did nothing to address the fundamental problems at the club which would have addressed the slide. How can you say they did nothing, you might not agree with what they did, but to say they did nothing is just utrue, and illogical. What about the signings for instance, as the most obvious sign of 'what they did'?

This meant when relegation was confirmed a lot of supporters lost faith in the ability and ambition of the club. They also took the summer to reflect at what had happened and what was about to happen and did not like what they were seeing. Even during the summer the board could have reduced the depression and resentment relegation would inevitably bring with some simple steps.

They should have publicly come out and apologised to the fans over the way they had run the club, even if that was only lip service. Instead we had a few half hearted statements and a blame culture to try and deflect from the real issues. We also had a lot of promises of how things would improve, how we would keep the basis of the squad to ensure promotion this season etc. only for most of it to be reneged on, thus losing more credibility. To answer your last two point. What if the board and SB believed as I, and many of the experts in the game do, that relegation was a function of a disasterously bad run of injuries. Remember it would only have taken a few points to mean that we were still in the prem, and not relegated as third down. To have made the statements you have suggested would have been wrong. In the world of your judgement it may have been the right thing to do, but I very strongly disagree with your view of what happened at the club. So do many many people, particularly those outside the club. As usual we have so called Bluenoses who are the worst at putting thier club down. Who needs enemies with friends like that?

To exasperate the poor running of the club the board continued to treat the fans as cash dispensers and tried to justify prem prices for inferior product. Because they wanted an immediate return to the Premiership, agressive tactics, with the money they bought better than anyone else in the division and restructured the whole club. Acceptance within that that a mistake had been made by buying older players who were injury prone and tyherefore returning to what Bruce always wanted to do, buy younger players to grow with the club.

Regardless of your opinion of Bruce a new manager would have united the supporters, anti would have been happy pro would have accepted it after relegation, and allowed time for the new team to settle. It would certainly have reduced the pressure, scrutiny and expectations on the playing side. So you would opt for anew manager, I would opt to stay with Bruce and support him, taht's where we differ. I could be churlish and point to Albion as an example of what may have happened with your theory.

By doing nothing the board have now made a rod for their own backs. The only way they are going to remove the negativity and increase the gates is by proving their intentions because you can no longer trust their word. I trust theior word, it is again the negative element who do not, and they do not give the club a chence, even now, second in the league, clean sheets all over the place you are still vehemently attacking the club. Where else would you find that in football? Just show me one other club where that has ever ever happened???

In my view the fundamental problems at the club are the disregard the board seems to have for the supporters, the tactically inept management and the blame culture to deflect the real blame. That has to be a joke, you and your unsupportive kind have been blaming the club, the board, the players, SB whilst absolbing yourselves of any blame at all, and you have been doing it for 18 months, and you continue to do it, and will in my opinion until you destroy what is good at the club. At the end of that tedious, unfair, unsupportive period of irrational negativity by fans blaming everything from the clubs cat to David Sullivan, you negative boys get all hurt when you get a bit of your own medicine from SB, and then from DS. That is the true sign of bullies. Dishing out malice and hurt, but crying foul when they get some back. WQell, hard luck, if you live by the sword, you tend to die by it.

Only a personal opinion but as things stand now rather than coming out with the ridiculous statements Sullivan has, and to blame the very supporters the club needs, the board needs to totally change the tactic for dealing with the supporters. They need to understand why the fans are not happy and make statements designed to win back confidence. How could they do that, the unsupportive are totally commited to go against anything the board could do or say, you yourself say, for instance, 'the board did nothing', in the face of that level of illogioc and vindictiveness, twhat would be the point?
A good start would be to fully admit to the mistakes that have been made and stop keep blaming the supporters for the current atmosphere and problems. When they do make a statement they should stick to it, the only way people will start to believe them again. It would also help to actually reveal an action plan of what they expect from the club and manager and the consequences for not achieving the targets. Give the supporters some indication of their ambition.

The playing side needs to be overhauled. Winning is great but the football is poor and certainly doesn’t make you want to come and spend best part of £30 to watch. Whatever the ‘true’ supporters think we need a full house to regain an atmosphere and have the finances to meet ambition. This means looking at the whole experience and frankly the level of entertainment does not warrant the price. Although it would be another climb down the board need to have a rethink on pricing, even if that means a refund to current season ticket holders.

As to the manager again the board have made things difficult for us and Sully’s latest statement is a kick in the teeth to the large, unhappy section of the supporters. To more or less say Bruce’s will never be sacked regardless of performance and to indicate the decision is based on personality rather than performance is a disgraceful way to run the club. To appease the fans there has to be something that would trigger a change in management. Personally that would be in contention for promotion in January and promotion at the end of the season, failure to meet either target should result in Bruce’s departure.

Finally what is now needed is all of the above plus time. The longer it takes for the measures to be put into place the longer the healing process will take.

You notice I don’t call for Bruce to be sacked now, even though in my opinion he does not deserve this latest chance. In some ways that would help but the club has again backed itself into a corner, a change of manager now may do more harm than good but failure to deal with the situation effectively, as in sack him, during the next slump will result in even more disillusioned supporters.

I'll make just one more point, because I feel I am whistling in the wind here, If you judge 2005~6 on results, i.e. we were relegated and little else, why are you not judging 2006~7 on the same basis, we are in line to be promoted. It smacks of hypocrisy and again a negativity and vindictiveness taht has no bounds, and no ends. I am with SB and the board even more every time I read such irrational thoughts.
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tevets
Geoff Horsfield
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Wisel my old mucker you are a lost cause.

I try to engage in debate with you but instead you resort to insults, yes labelling me a hypocrite, vindictive and even negative are insults.

I would normally be happy to discuss the various merits of our positions but I feel that would be pointless given the way you have responded.
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beegeeblueboy
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Bob Latchford
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Gaz

Those who are calling for a new board (of which for the record I am not one of) would expect D, D and R to sell their shares as a going concern, thereby maximising the selling price. The alternative is to cease trading and asset strip. This would result in a fire sale of the players and St Andrews. Whether the cash generated would compensate them for the shame and derision for doing such a dispicable and spiteful act is another matter. Whilst they treat BCFC as a business I would hardly imagine that their morals and ethics would have them contemplate doing this for more than a nanosecond
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Wisel
Unregistered

I guess you are not answering because you know I am right. I was not insulting you.


Oh by the way, to be your 'old mucker' I would have to know who you are. Whoareyawhoareyawhoareya?
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tevets
Geoff Horsfield
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Wisel
Nov 13 2006, 09:46 AM
I guess you are not answering because you know I am right. I was not insulting you.


Oh by the way, to be your 'old mucker' I would have to know who you are. Whoareyawhoareyawhoareya?

But if I did answer you would I get a sensible reply. As I have said to you on another thread you seem to want to make statements not debate an issue. Yet again in a response to one of my replies I get avoidance and veiled insults, I have never insulted you or your view why do it to me?

Just for you, and to prove I am after debate rather than name calling, I will answer you first point. If I receive a sensible reply maybe I will continue the debate.

There are a number of factors in the decline of the club and dissatisfaction of the supporters. 18 months ago it was obvious we were struggling, 12 months ago it was obvious our Prem status was in jeopardy. In January it was obvious immediate action was required to stave of disaster. Throughout that time the board and management did nothing to address the fundamental problems at the club which would have addressed the slide. How can you say they did nothing, you might not agree with what they did, but to say they did nothing is just utrue, and illogical. What about the signings for instance, as the most obvious sign of 'what they did'?

Although you don’t seem to want to admit it there are obviously problems at the club for there to be so much unrest. My view is the problems have been there under the surface for a long time, never really being addressed. Whilst we were in the prem some of the more obvious cracks could be easily papered over.

I say nothing was done during the period mentioned by that I mean fundamentally and constructively. It was obvious from the season before last Bruce was struggling to get the best out of the new improved squad. When the close season came we did spend some money, we brought in the likes of Forssell and Pandiani but the squad was unbalance and light up front.

The season started and from the very beginning it was obvious we would struggle, yet at no time was action taken. Bruce started the season playing in his defensive way, it wasn’t working but we never changed, apart form occasionally going more defensive. We continued throwing points away with bizarre, unforced, team selection but what happened, nothing. The manager did not have the tactical ability to try something different and the board did not have the strength to provide the missing direction, or as it now seems were too close to Bruce to be objective.

We limped by to January in serious trouble, the best squad in our history failing miserably. What was done? Not a lot. We brought in an untried, unproven player from the lower divisions for very little money and Sutton, a quality player but one who was past his best and injury prone.

There was never any ultimatum from the board to the management, in fact just the opposite Bruce was assured his job regardless of performance. Instead we fell back on excuses. It is all to do with injury, the ref was against us, bad luck etc. Well I am sorry but Portsmouth showed what positive action can achieve.

All in all there is a lot of unhappiness from the supporters because of the timid way we lost our Prem status. When I said we did nothing I mean it. Where was the rally cry from the board, and I don’t mean the insults to the fans about not singing enough? Where was the ultimatum to the manager? Where was the change of manager when it was obvious Bruce wasn’t turning things around? Why wasn’t there more activity in the transfer market in January? So much could have been done but instead we sat back in the hope everything would be OK.
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Wisel
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I can agree with you that there were no threats to Bruce and that there wasn't enough rallying calls from the board. But the latter would be pretty strange to see anyway, boards in football don't do that. Their lack of threat to Bruce is down to their style of management. I believe their stance of 'no threat' comes from thier belief that SB is the right man for the job long term, that we were unfortunate through injuries and that they believe that resoanable tenure is a good thing in terms of club success. I guess you do not believe those things, I do. That is where we fundamentally differ. On the other hand I do not believe SB is the finished article by any means, and has a lot to learn.

Another point, you accuse me of not debating things, of just making statements. You have no evidence for what you are saying, unlike the evidence I provided for you. So what you are saying is at least being unfair, if not insulting to someone who debates harder than most on here.

You still have not answered the point I made about where else you would find a club in our position, relfgated but then third (or second) in the table, no goals against etc etc., where a sizeable section of the fan base are calling for the head of the manager, staying away in droves, and offering continued criticism of the board. You will find it nowhere. Blues fans (some of) are a very perculiar breed. I would be interested in your thoughts.
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tevets
Geoff Horsfield
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Wisel
Nov 13 2006, 11:37 AM
I can agree with you that there were no threats to Bruce and that there wasn't enough rallying calls from the board. But the latter would be pretty strange to see anyway, boards in football don't do that. Their lack of threat to Bruce is down to their style of management. I believe their stance of 'no threat' comes from thier belief that SB is the right man for the job long term, that we were unfortunate through injuries and that they believe that resoanable tenure is a good thing in terms of club success. I guess you do not believe those things, I do. That is where we fundamentally differ. On the other hand I do not believe SB is the finished article by any means, and has a lot to learn.

Another point, you accuse me of not debating things, of just making statements. You have no evidence for what you are saying, unlike the evidence I provided for you. So what you are saying is at least being unfair, if not insulting to someone who debates harder than most on here.

You still have not answered the point I made about where else you would find a club in our position, relfgated but then third (or second) in the table, no goals against etc etc., where a sizeable section of the fan base are calling for the head of the manager, staying away in droves, and offering continued criticism of the board. You will find it nowhere. Blues fans (some of) are a very perculiar breed. I would be interested in your thoughts.

I did answer your point, although you seem to have missed my response. I said there is still unrest at the club because of unresolved issues. Which is why my post became protracted as I tried to explain what the isses were and why they came about.

All of this is my view but I know many who have a similar view point. By not doing more to avoid relegation the board and management have created the negativity and resentment.

You might not agree with me on what needed to have been done but something should have happened, more should have been done. If we had done a Portsmouth, changed the manager and brought in more players it may not have saved us but by being proactive the fans would have at least felt the board cared and tried everything possible to stave of relegation. We have a tradition at the club of not winning much but always giving our all, that did not happen last season and it hurt.

As things stand now a lot are still resentful we are in the division we are, this is why there is continuing negativity. As I tried to point out in my long winded post there are reasons for the atmosphere surrounding the club and until they are accepted by all, including the board and management, and addressed they will continue.
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Bookemdanno
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Alex Govan
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Firstly offer the job to Eric Black, stating its his job to lose. He can then groom this squad, knowing them first hand. He'd then have the oppourtunity to chose who to offload in January. This would help with some funding. More than likely Upson for a sizable fee. Other fringe players who are surplus to requiements.

In the meantime the other members of the board, could have the oppourtunity to find other potential suitors for owning the club.


If Black didn't want the job I'd find another manager who would look at it as a challenge.
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Wisel
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tevets
Nov 13 2006, 03:23 PM
Wisel
Nov 13 2006, 11:37 AM
I can agree with you that there were no threats to Bruce and that there wasn't enough rallying calls from the board. But the latter would be pretty strange to see anyway, boards in football don't do that. Their lack of threat to Bruce is down to their style of management. I believe their stance of 'no threat' comes from thier belief that SB is the right man for the job long term, that we were unfortunate through injuries and that they believe that resoanable tenure is a good thing in terms of club success. I guess you do not believe those things, I do. That is where we fundamentally differ. On the other hand I do not believe SB is the finished article by any means, and has a lot to learn.

Another point, you accuse me of not debating things, of just making statements. You have no evidence for what you are saying, unlike the evidence I provided for you. So what you are saying is at least being unfair, if not insulting to someone who debates harder than most on here.

You still have not answered the point I made about where else you would find a club in our position, relfgated but then third (or second) in the table, no goals against etc etc., where a sizeable section of the fan base are calling for the head of the manager, staying away in droves, and offering continued criticism of the board. You will find it nowhere. Blues fans (some of) are a very perculiar breed. I would be interested in your thoughts.

I did answer your point, although you seem to have missed my response. I said there is still unrest at the club because of unresolved issues. Which is why my post became protracted as I tried to explain what the isses were and why they came about.

All of this is my view but I know many who have a similar view point. By not doing more to avoid relegation the board and management have created the negativity and resentment.

You might not agree with me on what needed to have been done but something should have happened, more should have been done. If we had done a Portsmouth, changed the manager and brought in more players it may not have saved us but by being proactive the fans would have at least felt the board cared and tried everything possible to stave of relegation. We have a tradition at the club of not winning much but always giving our all, that did not happen last season and it hurt.

As things stand now a lot are still resentful we are in the division we are, this is why there is continuing negativity. As I tried to point out in my long winded post there are reasons for the atmosphere surrounding the club and until they are accepted by all, including the board and management, and addressed they will continue.

You still haven't addressed my point
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alfred E nueman
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Mikael Forssell
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Oh dear God. Please give it a rest wisel.
Can't you use a PM for goodness sake :banghead:

:banghead:
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mr penguin
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Wisel
Nov 13 2006, 08:53 PM
You still haven't addressed my point

If your point was

where else you would find a club in our position, relfgated but then third (or second) in the table, no goals against etc etc., where a sizeable section of the fan base are calling for the head of the manager, staying away in droves, and offering continued criticism of the board

the reason that comparable clubs do not spring readily to mind is that the vast majority of similar clubs would have replaced the said manager (a) when the club was relegated or (b) in time to prevent relegation

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valleyblue
Paul Tait
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Or if your Charlton - After just 15 games

They've actually got 2 more points than we had at this time last year but clearly their manager isn't a mate of the chairman.

OK you might notlike it but it's clear decisive action and shows the fans that the board will not accept the decline.
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