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| Benitez; seriously..... | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 13 2010, 07:23 PM (2,199 Views) | |
| pooley | Feb 13 2010, 11:30 PM Post #51 |
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The Icon
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ok everyone is entitled to an opinion, but lets look at FACTS shall we? (Feel free to skip to the tables and subsequent results if you dont want to read through every goal we have scored) Assists Benitez is credited with a lot of assists, lets look at each goal we scored this season (this shouldn't take too long :whistle: **thumbup ). Pompy - 1 goal James flattened larsson, fadds scored the penalty. Therefore the assist must go to seb for chasing the loose ball leading to him being flattened by James. Southampton - 2 goals A 1-2 between bowyer and mcsheffrey, before the ball fell to chucho who slid a pass into bowyer to score. The second goal was a neat cross by parnaby which Carsley scored Spurs - 1 goal O'Connors shot was deflected into a crowd where their keeper tried to parry the ball but only did so into the path of bowyer who scored. In the meele was their keeper, a defender and chucho so a bit fortuitous to give an assist to chucho for this one but I will do so to keep the chucho can do no wrong brigade happy. Hull - 1 goal Fahey's corner was headded in by o'connor - pople on here have tried to give an assist for this goal to chucho because he won the corner by bringing a save from their keeper...but if your going to say that you may as well say johnson had an assist because he headded the ball to chucho...ultmatley the goal was scored by o'connor and the assist must go down to fahey for his pin point cross. Bolton - 1 goal No real assist here, phillips cut inside well from the left and let rip from 18 yards out Burnley - 1 goal Seb scored a great freekick right at the end, I cant remember who won the fould but we know it wasnt chucho because he never played. Arsenal - 1 goal Ridgewell passed to jerome, who layed off for mcfadden, whos cross was flapped at by arsenal's keeper leading to bowyer scoring - assist to fadds for the cross Sunderland - 2 goals A freekick from seb was tapped in by ridge after a slight touch from jerome...assist goes to seb really for the freekick as it was a nothing touch from jerome (it grazed him more than anything) The second goal larsson chipped the ball to jerome who's flick landed at fadds feet who curled in a lovley shot - assist to jerome then for the dainty flick Liverpool - 2 Fadds freekick was flicked on by johnson, dann and then chucho turned it in. Goal for chucho and assist for dann Jeromes second we all know about, no assist, just a fantastic goal Fulham - 1 Mcfaddens chip was turned in by bowyer Wolves - 1 Larsson layed the ball back to bowyer, who curled a fantastic shot into the top corner Wigan - 3 Bowyer was fouled for the first goal, sebs 1st freekick. The third goal also scored by a larsson freekick was as a result of a foul on jerome. No real 'assist' by anyone, just two fantastic freekicks. Chucho scored the second in between larssons effort when he scored from a 1-on-1 after a lovley ball from bowyer - assist to bowyer Wet Spam - 1 Benitez set up bowyer Blackburn - 2 Sebs cross (after a short corner from fadds) was flicked on by chucho, then ridge to jerome to score - now the liverpool goal was credited with an assist by dann because it was his headder which set up chucho - the same should be said here of ridge. The second seb flicked the ball onto carr, who pulled it back for jerome to finish Everton - 1 A 1-2 between larsson and chucho before larsson finished - assist to chucho stoke - 1 chuchis shot deflected off delap and jerome turned the ball into the net manure - 1 a bowyer headder deflected off evans leaving jerome to turn the ball into the net, assist to bowyer for the headder which, should evans have not been there would have scored. forest - 1 A 1-2 between chucho and fergie before fergie fired home everton - 2 a fahey cross headded in by chucho then a seb cross, was layed off by fadds for fergie to score his second in as many games spurs - 1 fadds crossed the ball into jerome who nodded into ridge to score wolves - 2 fahey's cross was hedded back by gardner for kev to score then after a neat run by carr he pulled the ball back for kev to score his second derby - 2 fadds freekick was headded into the net (by way of a deflection off a derby defender) for the first the second came as gardners freekick was turned goalwards by phillips only for ridge to score the rebound - assist to kev So as we stand at the moment we are looking at assists of: Chucho - 7 fadds - 4 Larsson - 3 Bowyer - 2 carr - 2 fahey - 2 Jerome - 2 Parnaby - 1 Dann - 1 ridge - 1 phillips - 1 gardner - 1 so yes, he tops the assists, but it is worthy of note fadds and larsson (who both get a lot of criticism on here have also had their fair share) Goals A strikers job. Above where I have detailed assists I have also noted the scorers. Our table for goal scorers is as follows: Bowyer - 6 Jerome - 5 Seb - 4 chucho - 3 Ridge - 3 Phillips - 3 Mcfadden - 2 fergie - 2 Carsley - 1 O'connor - 1 dann - 1 as a striker, chucho has scored the same amount of goals as ridge (a centreback playing as left back) and phillips who has hardly played - more of later - and less than 2 midfielders and also less than jerome who gets a lot of stick on here. If we give 1 point for a goal, and for an assist the total scoreboard for assists + goals is as follows: chucho - 10 bowyer - 8 jerome - 7 seb - 7 fadds - 6 ridge - 4 philips - 4 fergie - 2 Dann - 2 carr - 2 fahey - 2 Gardner - 1 Parnaby - 1 carsley - 1 O'connor - 1 Apperances Now, as mentioned, phillips has not had much time. To make this fair lets look at apperances (only for those in the above table) including sub apperances. bowyer - 29 fergie - 29 carr - 28 chucho - 27 seb - 27 fadds - 27 fahey - 26 dann - 24 jerome - 22 ridge - 22 phillips - 14 O'connor - 12 parnaby - 8 carsley - 8 gardner - 3 Results/conclusion Now if we take the overall goals and assists table, and divide by apperances to work out a 'percentage of effectivness' ie. goals + assists against apperances (because as we all know, the more 'exposure' to game time the more likley you are to score/get an assist etc.) Obviously im not saying this proves who is the best player - looking at the table both carsley and parnaby are high but looking at carsley it is as a result of one goal scored against a team 2 division lower than us so obviously it has to be looked at objectivley Chucho - 10 / 27 = 37% Gardner - 1 / 3 = 33% Jerome - 7 / 22 = 31% philips - 4 / 14 = 28% Bowyer - 8 / 29 = 27% Seb - 7 / 27 = 26% fadds - 6 / 27 = 22% ridge - 4 / 22 = 18% Parnaby - 1 / 8 = 12% carsley - 1 / 8 = 12% Dann - 2 / 24 = 8% O'connor - 1 / 12 = 8% carr - 2 / 28 = 7% fahey - 2 / 26 = 7% fergie - 2 / 29 = 6% The above tale shows he has got a worth to us (wether he is actualy worth anywhere close to 10mil is debatable) but it is worth of note jerome gets a hell of a lot of stick on here but is only 6 percent lower in the table. Phillips has been accused on here latley by some of being a championship striker, he is 4th in our table here and not far off benitez (especially when you consider he cost us nothing and benitez is apparantly worth 10mil) Seb and Fadds have also had a lot of stick, again they have proved their worth when you actually break the season down and look at things game by game. |
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| bobatov | Feb 13 2010, 11:51 PM Post #52 |
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Geoff Horsfield
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Bolton - 1 goal No real assist here, phillips cut inside well from the left and let rip from 18 yards out i know you dont like the guy but i was at the game and chucho linked up wonderfully with phillips with a neat back heel to set up a 20 yard finish from super kev Unfortunately bolton went straight up the other end and scored :angry: |
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| PartisanBCFC | Feb 13 2010, 11:54 PM Post #53 |
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Jack Wiseman
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With all respect gene, I am as proud as you of the current side Don't like to be called a knocker because I stand firmly behind every Blues player unless they give me a reason to raise a slight concern or something worth debating........i.e form , attitude, desire to play for the shirt, work ethic, motivation whether by finacial reward or otherwise etc etc I have often stood behind players like McSheffrey, Blake, Kilkenny, Heskey, Murphy, Jonty, Martin Taylor and many, many others and have defended them all from some really unpleasant viotrol on here ......and as well you know it As for the 72-76 teams and onwards, many of us Koppites used to hound the likes of Tery Hibbitt, Gareth Sprake, John Roberts, Tommy Carroll, Tony Towers even Roger Hynd and Stanley Harland who were both legends but nothing more than high profile brickhouses on two very ageing legs .....The barracking though was generally light hearted and Mickey take.....we knew of many players' limitations back then but then equally appreciated their efforts for the side and they loved playing in front of us.....a reputation that even sway some players to sign for us ......Birmingham City fans are a very passionate bunch Don't forget the internet is an avenue of today that we didn't have the benefit of back then and today the slaggings and scapegoat hunting are much more prevelant in today's football The Song Remains The Same.......As a lifelong fan I want to see BCFC win trophies and do well both on and off the field.....I want to see us well liked and appaluded in the media all over the world, not just locally It's testament to that 70's Penguin era that we actually compare teams of today to them.......but seriously how could you even knock Bob Hatton, Bob Latchford, Kenny Burns and The Messiah Francis himself ??......They were awesome to watch but more importantly to the topic, they were consistent in their styles of play.....Trevor could have picked, chosen and played for any of the world's leading top clubs back then as early as 1974/75 but he remained loyal to us for 9 whole years.....There are not many modern day players who would even show that kind of loyalty today ?? Consistency is my main gripe.........We didn't play that well at Stoke, neither at home to Wolves yet we found the determination to win 3 points and how we came away from Everton with a point still beggars belief (but a much better display in the FA Cup 4th Round game and we did deserve the win that time around)...but we didn't play at all well at West Ham for large chunks of the game and there are some players in Blues first team right now who simply aren't earning their keep I think most of us are saying there are simply certain areas of the field where we could be doing better......and the striking department is one of them I'm actually glad that at least AM bought in Michel and Gardner because they will keep other players on their toes and who thought their places were secure and untouchable......Come the summer we will see 2 new strikers arrive at the club and that can only be a good thing There's nothing wrong with chastising some players if they invite the criticism.....we are dominating some games and only winning by one goal or securing only a point, it doesn't have to be hard work if all of the players do what they are paid for.....Let's be honest Joe Hart has likely earned us 8 points all by himself this year alone and one bright spark on here even called him a donkey after Derby's opening goal And Oh ! Don't forget who has been one of the leading and most vocal supporters of Alex McLeish through thick and thin.......Even throughout the whole of the last season in the Championship where hundreds of so-called Blues fans out there were waiting with the rope and daggers and calling for the man's head on a silver platter ME , that's who I think you're barking up the wrong tree.......I am not a knocker , I am simply a loyal Blues supporter who simply reserves the right to moan about this or that individual or collective performance as I choose There's no denying many matches this campaign have been of the "Jeckyll and Hyde" variety over two halves.......One half we seem dire but then find the spirit to step into top gear.....or vice versa....there have been many matches like that this season......If we can play like we know we can for a whole 90 minutes we might well blitz some unfortunate opponent very soon KRO |
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| PartisanBCFC | Feb 13 2010, 11:56 PM Post #54 |
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Jack Wiseman
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Crikey , Pooley :silence: And there I was thinking I wrote very long threads :whistle: :whistle: |
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| pooley | Feb 13 2010, 11:58 PM Post #55 |
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The Icon
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im...bored mate **thumbup |
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| PA_nomore! | Feb 14 2010, 12:26 AM Post #56 |
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Paul Tait
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Chucho is a potential world class player, he just needs to learn how to finish. He's missed 7 or 8 side footers this season. I don't understand how he can have so much quality on the ball but spoon his shots straight at the keeper... every time. I know confidence makes a difference, but McLeish needs to have a word with his intepretator and tell him he's going to miss the opportunity of a life time if he doesn't find some composure within himself (which we all know he has). I've every faith in the guy. I think people forget he's 22. |
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| bobatov | Feb 14 2010, 12:44 AM Post #57 |
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Geoff Horsfield
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i agree upto the last sentance he is 23 **thumbup |
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| colinblue | Feb 14 2010, 12:48 AM Post #58 |
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Kenny Burns
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I'm really torn on this one - part of me says that we've played the same starting 11 in 12 out of 13 matches; the one we didn't start with the same 11 we lost. So Cameron and Chuco MUST be doing something right - and as others have pointed out we are sitting pretty in both the league and the FA cup. But ... another part of me says - where might be be if we had a couple (or at least one) prolific stikers? The answer is we don't know. SO I'm just going to enjoy where we are the moment. If we end up mid table and having made an FA Cup semi final (or God willing the Final) it will be one of the best years in my 40+ years as a Blues supporter. If we finish 15th and get knocked out of the cup next round it will be a wasted opportunity and we'll perhaps rightly be lambasting our strikers for not performing. But until then I'll get behind them and ride this wave of (relative) success we're enjoying. KRO! |
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| MikaelForssell | Feb 14 2010, 02:22 AM Post #59 |
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Jeff Hall
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Spot on, except the age :P :LOL: (Skip to the bottom of my post if you cant be bothered to read, ill summarise :LOL:) Its obvious he's a player who thrives on confidence... and at home, he always seems too eager to score his first goal at St Andrews, so takes extra touches. You look at Phillips, and he's experienced, and he knows to rely on his instincts... and when Chucho does that, and Jerome too (you only have to look at his more instinctive efforts this season... Liverpool away, and his second goal vs Blackburn at home... to see how effective that can be). Confidence for the front two is important, and unfortunately there are people who have identified them to be our 'weak link' already, because "they arent scoring enough goals" or what not. When really, they are amongst our top scorers (yes I know thats not much to boast about with 6 being top but still..). If they get the confidence from the fans, and are actually supported, rather than every loose touch or bad pass made is greeted by groans from the crowd and gestures towards them, they may well improve quite a bit, then rely on instincts more. Jerome has it in him especially, it wasnt long ago that he banged in 20 for Cardiff, playing with full confidence, supporters who had trust in him, and his varied finishes prove he was confident, and relying on instincts. Chucho is a fine example of a team player...he puts a lot of effort in, usually thats enough for Blues fans, but expectations shot up in the summer following our long, drawn out transfer negotiations for him... with, and im pretty sure I can say this in full confidence, a lot of people not seeing him play, apart from maybe YouTube clips? Also take into consideration that Chucho IS NOT an out and out front man, who will stay in the box and rarely venture back, as his main position is second striker, linking up from deep, and playing off a strong target man... which is why Eck went for Pavlyuchenko.. Yet (and im a fan of him too btw) Pavlyuchenko was wanted by more or less 90%-95% of this messageboard throughout January, when he's more of a selfish player, who wont run around for 90 minutes like a Chucho would... how long would it be for him to be the new resident scapegoat? To summarise (and for the people who havent been bothered to read the above stuff following my little message at the start :LOL:). The two main issues with Christian Benitez right now, is 1. Confidence, and 2. Fan Expectation. 1. Simple enough, he lacks confidence due to lack of goals.. he's trying too hard at home to score. 2. It was far too much to ask for him to come in, shoulder all our goalscoring, and finish with double figures in his first season over here? Yet that doesnt stop people thinking he should be up with the top scorers in the league. Look at Drogba (different players I know and im not comparing them on anything but this).. he took a couple of years to settle in England, and is now arguably the best striker in Europe (not for me, that'd be Rooney, but still). He has plenty of time ahead of him in his career, he's 23, he's damn talented (that cannot be denied surely?) but he needs to learn how to harness his talent to his fulfill his promise. |
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| clapton bluenose | Feb 14 2010, 04:03 AM Post #60 |
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Alex Govan
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Phillips still had a lot to do but a great one two with Benitez all the same... I think blues will be be able to negotiate the price down from the original price if there are no other takers. I also feel if Mcleish can improve the personnel in the club so that we can keep the ball more on the deck we might see an improvement in Benitez's all round game. |
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| txblues | Feb 14 2010, 06:40 AM Post #61 |
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Geoff Horsfield
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How anybody can say that there are too many Blues players not earning their keep is beyond mt sim ple comprehension.We have only played 11 players for our run of 16?games unbeaten so how is it possible that they cannot be earning their keep?As for consistency is there a more consistent team than BCFC?18 games 2 losses is fantastic for any team in the Prem. |
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| ESONEULB | Feb 14 2010, 08:08 AM Post #62 |
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Bluenose Ad Vitam = Bluenose For Life
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:applause: I am loving this season.... :bluzz: http://bcfcforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=59981 |
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| blueoscar | Feb 14 2010, 09:34 AM Post #63 |
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Olivier Tebily
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Pooley, that was an exceedingly long thread just to knock Benitez |
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| pooley | Feb 14 2010, 12:34 PM Post #64 |
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The Icon
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in which case you never read it because I didnt knock him. I said he has his worth but it is nowhere near worth 10 mil. Thank you for proving my point made a while ago about people not reading what I write about benitez and jumping to conclusions I said "he has got a worth to us (wether he is actualy worth anywhere close to 10mil is debatable)" plus put him top of our 'attacking effectivness table'. If your going to comment on a post please read the post first otherwise you make yourself look silly (like you have done here) |
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| Lewis | Feb 14 2010, 12:42 PM Post #65 |
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Paul Tait
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I think all the self appointed experts on the quality of our strikers need to think a little more before slating either Benitez or Jerome. Try looking at the facts for a start. Try looking at the results in games where the two have played for the majority of the game. You may not understand the reasons why they are effective, but effective they are. Could we have a better strike force in the future possibly so, possibly that will mean new players, possibly it will include one or both of the two being criticised here. But for certain these two deserve our total support, not the criticism of people who for some reason just always leap to attacking our players at every slight downturn in our performance or results, rather than take a very valid alternative course of trying to understand why these two (or any of our players) are helping us to achieve the best set of results this club have ever returned. I find this sort of thread very frustrating, in many ways. |
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| pooley | Feb 14 2010, 12:47 PM Post #66 |
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The Icon
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that is exactly what I have done mate. Chucho has had a DIRECT imact (Ie last touch before someone scored - a 1 2 or a nice lay off in more of our goals than anyone else. I said that. I also said when you combine that with his goals he has scored and look at that in connection with how many games he has played he is our most prominant force in an attacking sense. Jerome is also up there too with bowyer and also mcfadden and larsson who also get a lot of hassel on here (see the other thread started today) |
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| Ian | Feb 14 2010, 01:11 PM Post #67 |
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Alex Govan
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Lewis its you that need to look at the facts. Have a look at Cameron Jerome's stats and tell me if there good. Look at his time on the pitch versus his goal return, how any sane person can defend that is beyond me. He misses chance after chance and i for one and sick and tired of it. My club is paying this guy to score goals and he isn't, i every right to question his ability. |
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| n0166895 | Feb 14 2010, 01:20 PM Post #68 |
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Peter Enckelman
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Look at heskeys goal return, yet hes a starter for England.... Jerome may get one sight at goal a game, not a chance, i mean a slight look in and if he doesnt score, fans are at the ready waiting to criticise. Ill go as far as saying in a way, alot of so called 'fans' are hoping he misses oppurtuniites so they can use jerome as a scapegoat. Jerome had a chance against Derby, and it was a brilliant save. one chance. I dont know what some fans are watching but we arent a creative team. We look to stop teams primarily, not to try and open them up. |
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| Willie | Feb 14 2010, 01:22 PM Post #69 |
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Willie
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This is quite an odd debate as it seems as though in order to defend Benitez people turn on Jerome and vice a versa. I would say look at the stats for both players and ask are these the stats of a prolific goalscorers... Benitez and Jerome have done a sterling job for the team this season and are an integrual part of the team work ethic. But we are getting to the point now where the defence is sorted, the midfield is almost sorted (still lacking and attacking midfielder)imo. Its when you reach the front that the big questions have to be asked. this is the area we need a vast improvement in. We cannot go on relying on the back 4 etc to keep us in games we need more goals. Hopefully in the summer Amc will address this issue and we will see the arrival of 2x strikers. so the club can progress next season. |
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| notsodeadlyellis | Feb 14 2010, 01:31 PM Post #70 |
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Ian Bennett
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This sums it all up just nicely, agree with TB up to the lazy suggestion As for Chucho he has skill, trickery and pace, definitely not the strength and I'm yet to be convinced by his finishing ablility but am prepared to wait and see on that one. For me it is Jerome who is the weak link, Benitez just had a poor game yesterday |
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| Jabber BCFC | Feb 14 2010, 01:55 PM Post #71 |
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Frank Worthington
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:applause: So would you buy Chucho in the Summer? |
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| Lewis | Feb 14 2010, 01:56 PM Post #72 |
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Paul Tait
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Ian I do not think it is appropriate for you to question my sanity. But let's move onto my defence of Jerome and Benitez which is what I was saying. I will not make my point again, because you can go back and read it, but I was not defending Jerome's goals for so you are responding to the wrong point. I was defending the effectiveness of the combination of Jerome and Benitez in their impact on our team. Maybe you think you could do better than Alex McLeish, but my money stays clearly with Big Eck. |
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| Lewis | Feb 14 2010, 02:05 PM Post #73 |
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Paul Tait
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Here's a separate point, and a different way of looking at Jerome. Ealr in the game at Derby, he has a chance which I am sure annoyed the easy knockers of the guy. I watched it at the time and thought he could have done better, I watched it again on the box, and still thought he could have done better. But then I looked at what he actually did, he attempted to curl the ball our of the keepers reach, a la Drogba, or any top striker. He didn't quite manage to do that, but here's more power to his elbow for that attempt and many more. He might have scored had he lashed the ball at the net, but what we want in the Premiership is a player who can curl the ball into the top corner, not a league two lasher of shots. So, work in progress for certain, will it turn out right, I don't know, but neither does anyone else on here. So back to my previous point now, the best things we as supporters can do is encourage him by supporting to the hilt. Continually slagging him off is counter-productive in my view. |
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| notsodeadlyellis | Feb 14 2010, 02:20 PM Post #74 |
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Ian Bennett
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that would depend on what we could get him for, possibly not worth buying at the price that is reputedly being asked, but he might be one we'd regret not signing |
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| Jabber BCFC | Feb 14 2010, 02:24 PM Post #75 |
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Frank Worthington
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Especially if West Ham get him and then he finds his form. I would offer 5M for him + add ons. |
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2:16 PM Jul 11