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This Will Be Controversial I Suppose
Topic Started: Jul 8 2011, 05:39 AM (1,016 Views)
blueblood
Johnny Vincent
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I didn't say the slave trade had relevance to Africas plight today, I mentioned it to show how long the west has been exploiting Africa. What does have relevance though is us taking their skilled workers, to fill NHS vacancies for example. We take their raw materials and their brains but we shouldn't give them aid?

How can we preach to Africans to not have Children they cant support when we have an entire culture here of women having children that the state pay for.

:banghead:
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Kaje
Garry Pendrey
[ *  *  *  * ]
blueblood
Jul 8 2011, 01:28 PM
I didn't say the slave trade had relevance to Africas plight today, I mentioned it to show how long the west has been exploiting Africa. What does have relevance though is us taking their skilled workers, to fill NHS vacancies for example. We take their raw materials and their brains but we shouldn't give them aid?

How can we preach to Africans to not have Children they cant support when we have an entire culture here of women having children that the state pay for. 

:banghead:

Do WE take them, or do THEY come here to train and seek employment?

As a student nurse, I can confirm it's the latter and not the former.

Many nurses of African origin either come here to take advantage of the higher quality of training OR they come here, once qualified in Africa, to earn more money in their profession than they do back home.

I don't know of any nurse of African origin that has been forced to come here by the NHS. If we pay more than they do in their home countries, and we'll allow them to work here, who's to blame? Their country's health service.
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keepthecityblue
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Frank Worthington
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
blueblood
Jul 8 2011, 01:28 PM
I didn't say the slave trade had relevance to Africas plight today, I mentioned it to show how long the west has been exploiting Africa. What does have relevance though is us taking their skilled workers, to fill NHS vacancies for example. We take their raw materials and their brains but we shouldn't give them aid?

How can we preach to Africans to not have Children they cant support when we have an entire culture here of women having children that the state pay for.

:banghead:

Well I'm still not keen on the idea of "The West" expoliting Africa - unless it is made clear we are talking about Western elites. The vast majority of Europeans have absolutely no connection with the exploitation of Africa.

And yes, I also agree with you on taking the skilled workers. I have made the point before that the idea of skilled immigration to Britian is often damaging to the countries which the skilled immigrants come from.

I haven't actually said anything about not providing aid to Africa - I am all for aid in times of crisis - however I don't think aid should be treated as some sort of acceptable compensation for poaching skilled workers.

My issue with foreign aid is actually what it is spent on, and the forms in which it is provided. I'm sure there are not many people who would consider weapons a form of aid - but it seems that our government has a different point of view on this.

And on your last point, two wrongs don't make a right. I also don't think the state should be rewarding those who have too many children in this country either.
Those who choose to have children should first ensure they are in a position to support them. If they aren't then the harsh reality for them is they shouldn't have kids.

But simply because some people in this country do similarly, does not mean we should not be educating Africa not to do it.

At present rates of population growth Ethiopia is forecast a population of 278 million by 2050 (US Census bureau). Their population is going to be tripling over 40 years.
The UK population is forecast to grow by around 13% to 71 million.

The UK does not have the same problem at all with population growth - and as I said before - this is also a region that has long struggled to feed much smaller populations.
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blueblood
Johnny Vincent
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Kaje
Jul 8 2011, 01:45 PM
blueblood
Jul 8 2011, 01:28 PM
I didn't say the slave trade had relevance to Africas plight today, I mentioned it to show how long the west has been exploiting Africa. What does have relevance though is us taking their skilled workers, to fill NHS vacancies for example. We take their raw materials and their brains but we shouldn't give them aid?

How can we preach to Africans to not have Children they cant support when we have an entire culture here of women having children that the state pay for. 

:banghead:

Do WE take them, or do THEY come here to train and seek employment?

As a student nurse, I can confirm it's the latter and not the former.

Many nurses of African origin either come here to take advantage of the higher quality of training OR they come here, once qualified in Africa, to earn more money in their profession than they do back home.

I don't know of any nurse of African origin that has been forced to come here by the NHS. If we pay more than they do in their home countries, and we'll allow them to work here, who's to blame? Their country's health service.

Link
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blueblood
Johnny Vincent
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
keepthecityblue
Jul 8 2011, 01:47 PM
blueblood
Jul 8 2011, 01:28 PM
I didn't say the slave trade had relevance to Africas plight today, I mentioned it to show how long the west has been exploiting Africa. What does have relevance though is us taking their skilled workers, to fill NHS vacancies for example. We take their raw materials and their brains but we shouldn't give them aid?

How can we preach to Africans to not have Children they cant support when we have an entire culture here of women having children that the state pay for. 

:banghead:

Well I'm still not keen on the idea of "The West" expoliting Africa - unless it is made clear we are talking about Western elites. The vast majority of Europeans have absolutely no connection with the exploitation of Africa.

And yes, I also agree with you on taking the skilled workers. I have made the point before that the idea of skilled immigration to Britian is often damaging to the countries which the skilled immigrants come from.

I haven't actually said anything about not providing aid to Africa - I am all for aid in times of crisis - however I don't think aid should be treated as some sort of acceptable compensation for poaching skilled workers.

My issue with foreign aid is actually what it is spent on, and the forms in which it is provided. I'm sure there are not many people who would consider weapons a form of aid - but it seems that our government has a different point of view on this.

And on your last point, two wrongs don't make a right. I also don't think the state should be rewarding those who have too many children in this country either.
Those who choose to have children should first ensure they are in a position to support them. If they aren't then the harsh reality for them is they shouldn't have kids.

But simply because some people in this country do similarly, does not mean we should not be educating Africa not to do it.

At present rates of population growth Ethiopia is forecast a population of 278 million by 2050 (US Census bureau). Their population is going to be tripling over 40 years.
The UK population is forecast to grow by around 13% to 71 million.

The UK does not have the same problem at all with population growth - and as I said before - this is also a region that has long struggled to feed much smaller populations.

I agree with what you say but you can't compare our population growth to that of a developing country. And our ageing population wont be without its problems either.

I'm just saying if we can't successfully educate people in this country how can we educate different cultures, where for example large families are a form of showing your status.

Drop the debt.
**thumbup
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Kaje
Garry Pendrey
[ *  *  *  * ]
blueblood
Jul 8 2011, 01:57 PM
Kaje
Jul 8 2011, 01:45 PM
blueblood
Jul 8 2011, 01:28 PM
I didn't say the slave trade had relevance to Africas plight today, I mentioned it to show how long the west has been exploiting Africa. What does have relevance though is us taking their skilled workers, to fill NHS vacancies for example. We take their raw materials and their brains but we shouldn't give them aid?

How can we preach to Africans to not have Children they cant support when we have an entire culture here of women having children that the state pay for. 

:banghead:

Do WE take them, or do THEY come here to train and seek employment?

As a student nurse, I can confirm it's the latter and not the former.

Many nurses of African origin either come here to take advantage of the higher quality of training OR they come here, once qualified in Africa, to earn more money in their profession than they do back home.

I don't know of any nurse of African origin that has been forced to come here by the NHS. If we pay more than they do in their home countries, and we'll allow them to work here, who's to blame? Their country's health service.

Link

Read the article.

Nowhere does it say that we're forcing these people to come and work here.

"But the BMA says this move does not stop those who volunteer to come to Britain in search of better salaries and conditions. "

And:

A spokesman said: "The NHS does not actively recruit from any country that does not wish to be recruited from.

"The NHS leads the way in the ethical recruitment of healthcare professionals with a strict list of countries from which it does not actively recruit, drawn up with the agreement of the countries involved, which includes much of Africa.

"However, if healthcare professionals are determined to come here to work we cannot legally deny them that opportunity."

And:

"In addition, the vast majority of those who come to work in the UK from developing countries currently return to their country of origin after a few months or years, often with vastly improved skills and levels of experience."

These people volunteer to come over here for work. We cannot, in all good faith, say no - why? The NHS would soon get branded racist for a start! Secondly, those I know actually send large portions of their salary back home to support their families and community - and that's a big feat considering nurses get paid pittance.

I know my chosen future profession, dude! **thumbup
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treetop
Member Avatar
Alex Govan
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
blueblood
Jul 8 2011, 12:27 PM
Kaje
Jul 8 2011, 12:11 PM
That was a long time ago, isn't it time we all moved on from that?

I certainly didn't attack the continent and capture people to use as slaves, yet some of the tax I pay goes to Africa.

Why should we be punished for something our ancestors did to their ancestors hundreds of years ago?

I mentioned the slave trade to show how far the exploitation stretches back, centuries, which continues to this day.

The continent is $200 billion in debt, they have to spend more repaying this debt than they can on their own peoples welfare. The west is keeping them in poverty so the least we can do is offer a little bit of aid.



:break:

If you read your history you will find it was the black man who sold the black man to the white man.
It was a white man who who encouraged the abolition of the slave trade.
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wardendbluenose
Alex Govan
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Donate your old tv's instead and give them something to do.

Let them watch a few episodes of eastenders and the Jeremy Kyle show. You never know after seeing that they might organize a whip round for us.
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Woodbine
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Mikael Forssell
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
blueblood
Jul 8 2011, 12:41 PM
Kaje
Jul 8 2011, 11:38 AM
blueblood
Jul 8 2011, 11:37 AM
You lot should join the UN, you could sort out the Africa problem in a couple of hours.

The insight offered here is mind blowing.

:break:

Yep, withdraw the funding and see how they get on. I bet they'd do just as well OR actually make an effort to change things themselves.

Tell you what, why don't we just nuke the continent.

That's the only way you're going to solve the problem...... or just leave them to sort it out themselves, which they never will of course.

Maulley, your conscience money is wasted on any charity unless you know it's going to the intended target and that most of it hasn't been siphoned off by the organisers in expenses.

Just a thought..... I wonder if all those African scammers like Mrs Odemboogawooga who keeps offering to deposit £500,000 into my bank account use some of their booty to help their fellow countrymen?
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keepthecityblue
Member Avatar
Frank Worthington
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
blueblood
Jul 8 2011, 02:01 PM
I agree with what you say but you can't compare our population growth to that of a developing country. And our ageing population wont be without its problems either.

I'm just saying if we can't successfully educate people in this country how can we educate different cultures, where for example large families are a form of showing your status.

Drop the debt.
**thumbup

Yeah, I see what you are saying - and honestly I wouldn't know where we would start with education about not having too many kids - or whether more drastic measures such as rewarding those with smaller families by giving them first oppurtunity to recieve aid - as harsh as that does sound.

The only thing is that, I cannot help thinking it is a ticking timebomb that seems to being going largely ignored by aid agencies/charities/governments.

As I said before, food and water are scarce resources - and they are finite. The planet Earth is only capable of supporting a limited amount of human beings and, as with other animal specices, once the population exceeds the food supply famine and disease become an inevitable consequence. And with humans, war does too.

I agree with you on the debt - there is no doubt that the debt repayments countries are forced to make for the loans made to dictators to fund wars are unjust - and dropping the debts would probably benefit the UK taxpayer in the long run, as countries could become less reliant on foreign aid. But of course, dropping debts may not be so beneficial to the fat cat banks :whistle:
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blueblood
Johnny Vincent
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Kaje
Jul 8 2011, 02:02 PM
blueblood
Jul 8 2011, 01:57 PM
Kaje
Jul 8 2011, 01:45 PM
blueblood
Jul 8 2011, 01:28 PM
I didn't say the slave trade had relevance to Africas plight today, I mentioned it to show how long the west has been exploiting Africa. What does have relevance though is us taking their skilled workers, to fill NHS vacancies for example. We take their raw materials and their brains but we shouldn't give them aid?

How can we preach to Africans to not have Children they cant support when we have an entire culture here of women having children that the state pay for. 

:banghead:

Do WE take them, or do THEY come here to train and seek employment?

As a student nurse, I can confirm it's the latter and not the former.

Many nurses of African origin either come here to take advantage of the higher quality of training OR they come here, once qualified in Africa, to earn more money in their profession than they do back home.

I don't know of any nurse of African origin that has been forced to come here by the NHS. If we pay more than they do in their home countries, and we'll allow them to work here, who's to blame? Their country's health service.

Link

Read the article.

Nowhere does it say that we're forcing these people to come and work here.

"But the BMA says this move does not stop those who volunteer to come to Britain in search of better salaries and conditions. "

And:

A spokesman said: "The NHS does not actively recruit from any country that does not wish to be recruited from.

"The NHS leads the way in the ethical recruitment of healthcare professionals with a strict list of countries from which it does not actively recruit, drawn up with the agreement of the countries involved, which includes much of Africa.

"However, if healthcare professionals are determined to come here to work we cannot legally deny them that opportunity."

And:

"In addition, the vast majority of those who come to work in the UK from developing countries currently return to their country of origin after a few months or years, often with vastly improved skills and levels of experience."

These people volunteer to come over here for work. We cannot, in all good faith, say no - why? The NHS would soon get branded racist for a start! Secondly, those I know actually send large portions of their salary back home to support their families and community - and that's a big feat considering nurses get paid pittance.

I know my chosen future profession, dude! **thumbup

But you see that we are taking their skilled people? How will they ever 'get themselves out of it' if they aren't given the resources they need.

I know my human geography, dude **thumbup
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Kaje
Garry Pendrey
[ *  *  *  * ]
We're not 'taking' their skilled people, we're allowing them to come and work here if they want to.

That's not our fault. We can't just say NO to workers of African origin!!

And, like I said, many of them actually send a lot of their wages home - therefore helping their families and communities.

We're not being irresponsible by employing their nurses if their nurses don't want to work there yet still want to support their loved ones.
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Hatton
Member Avatar
Martin Grainger
[ *  *  * ]
blueblood
Jul 8 2011, 12:05 PM
Kaje
Jul 8 2011, 11:46 AM
blueblood
Jul 8 2011, 11:41 AM
Kaje
Jul 8 2011, 11:38 AM
blueblood
Jul 8 2011, 11:37 AM
You lot should join the UN, you could sort out the Africa problem in a couple of hours.

The insight offered here is mind blowing.

:break:

Yep, withdraw the funding and see how they get on. I bet they'd do just as well OR actually make an effort to change things themselves.

Tell you what, why don't we just nuke the continent.

Or reduce/withdraw our funding and rectify our own problems first, before reintroducing a structured funding package based on the continent/certain countries progressing to certain standards of living?

Maybe after centuries of exploiting the continent in terms of the slave trade and their resources as well as the debt, and continuing to do so, aid is the least we can offer.

You really should check your history regarding East Africa, it was dominated by the Omani Arabs and it was actually the British that ended the slave trade in East Africa.
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lordnewtown
Geoff Horsfield
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
treetop
Jul 8 2011, 02:15 PM
blueblood
Jul 8 2011, 12:27 PM
Kaje
Jul 8 2011, 12:11 PM
That was a long time ago, isn't it time we all moved on from that?

I certainly didn't attack the continent and capture people to use as slaves, yet some of the tax I pay goes to Africa.

Why should we be punished for something our ancestors did to their ancestors hundreds of years ago?

I mentioned the slave trade to show how far the exploitation stretches back, centuries, which continues to this day.

The continent is $200 billion in debt, they have to spend more repaying this debt than they can on their own peoples welfare. The west is keeping them in poverty so the least we can do is offer a little bit of aid.



:break:

If you read your history you will find it was the black man who sold the black man to the white man.
It was a white man who who encouraged the abolition of the slave trade.

Absolutely true.

I've read up a lot on this subject.

Firstly it wasn't 'Africans', it was a small section of the continent in Central and Western Africa round the Gulf of Guinea. If the climate in North-West Africa was not desert but rather tropical and fertile enough to support a large population, then slaves sent to the Americas would have been Arabs not Blacks.

Slaves as you said were SOLD (not captured) by Black Africans and far from the image portrayed that Europeans took regular Joe's off the street, most who were sold into slavery were already slaves anyway.

Slavery is one of the oldest institutions in the world and every race has at some point in history been both the ENSLAVERS and the ENSLAVED.

The Arab world imported more Black slaves than Europe ever did and also continued the process for longer.

The first slaves in the Americas were WHITE.

There were BLACK slave owners even in America.

Slavery was never about race and only BECAME about race when the move for abolition and emancipation gathered momentum, and those who supported slavery used racist ideology as justification to keep it going.

Britain, far from getting rich off slavery as people like to believe, actually SPENT more money ending the slave trade than it ever made from it.

A wrong is a wrong no matter who commits it, but to hold one continent/race guilty over everyone else is, racist.








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thetoot
Member Avatar
Frank Worthington
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
lordnewtown
Jul 8 2011, 07:12 PM
treetop
Jul 8 2011, 02:15 PM
blueblood
Jul 8 2011, 12:27 PM
Kaje
Jul 8 2011, 12:11 PM
That was a long time ago, isn't it time we all moved on from that?

I certainly didn't attack the continent and capture people to use as slaves, yet some of the tax I pay goes to Africa.

Why should we be punished for something our ancestors did to their ancestors hundreds of years ago?

I mentioned the slave trade to show how far the exploitation stretches back, centuries, which continues to this day.

The continent is $200 billion in debt, they have to spend more repaying this debt than they can on their own peoples welfare. The west is keeping them in poverty so the least we can do is offer a little bit of aid.



:break:

If you read your history you will find it was the black man who sold the black man to the white man.
It was a white man who who encouraged the abolition of the slave trade.

Absolutely true.

I've read up a lot on this subject.

Firstly it wasn't 'Africans', it was a small section of the continent in Central and Western Africa round the Gulf of Guinea. If the climate in North-West Africa was not desert but rather tropical and fertile enough to support a large population, then slaves sent to the Americas would have been Arabs not Blacks.

Slaves as you said were SOLD (not captured) by Black Africans and far from the image portrayed that Europeans took regular Joe's off the street, most who were sold into slavery were already slaves anyway.

Slavery is one of the oldest institutions in the world and every race has at some point in history been both the ENSLAVERS and the ENSLAVED.

The Arab world imported more Black slaves than Europe ever did and also continued the process for longer.

The first slaves in the Americas were WHITE.

There were BLACK slave owners even in America.

Slavery was never about race and only BECAME about race when the move for abolition and emancipation gathered momentum, and those who supported slavery used racist ideology as justification to keep it going.

Britain, far from getting rich off slavery as people like to believe, actually SPENT more money ending the slave trade than it ever made from it.

A wrong is a wrong no matter who commits it, but to hold one continent/race guilty over everyone else is, racist.

Spot on. There is a lot of nonsense talked on this subject. Good to see some intelligent points being made **thumbup
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blueblood
Johnny Vincent
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
So because the black slaves were already slaves before the white man got a hold of them there is no liability with the west? Ok

Anyway, I mentioned the slave trade in passing and didn't mention race in it at all, treetop did that with his quite remarkable comment. Black man bad, white man good. :blink:
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treetop
Member Avatar
Alex Govan
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
blueblood
Jul 9 2011, 10:42 AM
So because the black slaves were already slaves before the white man got a hold of them there is no liability with the west? Ok

Anyway, I mentioned the slave trade in passing and didn't mention race in it at all, treetop did that with his quite remarkable comment. Black man bad, white man good.  :blink:

Gordon Benett, you people really need to go back to school and learn how to read.
It's little wonder why this forum is losing members when words are twisted to gain some sort of points in a discussion.
It reminds me when I was at school one teacher telling us how words get twisted when repeated out of context. :-

5 people repeating a story.

1. John's got a black dog
2. John's dog is black
3. John's dog is dirty
4. John's a dirty dog
5. John is a filthy animal.

I have gone over what I have said on this topic and can't find anywhere were I have said "The great white man innocent". So before you start misquoting people stick to the facts.

Just for your information blueblood I have read almost everything there is to be read regarding the history of the slave trade and for that matter the history of the American red indian. Believe me I know who the real savages were.
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Kaje
Garry Pendrey
[ *  *  *  * ]
Isn't it considered racist to call them 'red indians'? ;)
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spliffy
Geoff Horsfield
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Homo sapiens arose in Africa and migrated out of the continent around 50,000 to 100,000 years ago, replacing populations of Homo erectus in Asia and Neanderthals in Europe.

so in essence the African drove out the native species of Europe, therefore skin colour is irrelevant because that's just a bi-product of the suns strength. The descendents of Africa returned years later to enslave members of their own tribe/race......so its all Africans fault............right whom do I sue



or are we selectively choosing moments in history to fit our perceived prejudice ?

:LOL:
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thetoot
Member Avatar
Frank Worthington
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
spliffy
Jul 11 2011, 03:27 PM
Homo sapiens arose in Africa and migrated out of the continent around 50,000 to 100,000 years ago, replacing populations of Homo erectus in Asia and Neanderthals in Europe.

so in essence the African drove out the native species of Europe, therefore skin colour is irrelevant because that's just a bi-product of the suns strength. The descendents of Africa returned years later to enslave members of their own tribe/race......so its all Africans fault............right whom do I sue



or are we selectively choosing moments in history to fit our perceived prejudice ?

:LOL:

I liked the bit when we all lived near Bulgaria.
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Raters
Bob Latchford
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
I read somewhere that this has been going on for over 60 years, the western world helping out that is.
Billions and billions and billions of pounds spent. So why does it keep happening every few years?
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Blacksmith
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Jeff Hall
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
By a stroke of luck we were born in a country that does not have the droughts and other disasters that affect other parts of the world.

By a stroke of bad luck others are born in countries that seem to have one natural disaster after another.

Think yourselves lucky that through an accident of birth you are able to sit and type your views on a computer, rather than be malnurished, have flies crawling all over you and have to drink whatever water you can, no matter how safe it is.

Governments may be partly to blame, but try telling that to the starving.
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Des
Malcom Page
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Kaje
we do it because we are lucky enough to live in the greatest country on earth. This green & pleasent land where people from the other side of the globe will pay to be locked inside a container because at the end of the journey they will be in the promised land.
We should fall onto our knees and thank the lord that we live here.
Helping those less fortunate than ourselves seems to be the least we can do.
Also all countries that have low gdp have high birthrates, probably this isnt the rioght forum to explain in detail but basically unlike here children over there can start to contribute to the family`sattempt to prosper from an early age and financially they are a very low cost burden when they are infants.
For example look into details of the Irish Famine in the 1800`s striking similarities!.
P.S. Well done Simon! I would love to help out with my time in these countries when I retire!

KRO
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keepthecityblue
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Frank Worthington
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Blacksmith
Jul 14 2011, 04:47 PM
By a stroke of luck we were born in a country that does not have the droughts and other disasters that affect other parts of the world.

By a stroke of bad luck others are born in countries that seem to have one natural disaster after another.

Think yourselves lucky that through an accident of birth

That isn't completely true.

In truth, it isn't actually out of sheer luck that you are born into a country of wealth/famine.

No, you yourself had no choice in the matter, however your ancestors did, and every child is a product of his ancestors.

It really isn't as simple as "an accident of birth".

The sacrifices and hard work of generations before in Britain is what has shaped the Britain of today, and I think to just call it "luck" is almost to dismiss their contribution.

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keepthecityblue
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Frank Worthington
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Quote:
 
Also all countries that have low gdp have high birthrates, probably this isnt the rioght forum to explain in detail but basically unlike here children over there can start to contribute to the family`sattempt to prosper from an early age and financially they are a very low cost burden when they are infants.


This is true that children are seen as a financial asset.

However they are still a resources drain.

Of course, it is a very difficult thing for individual families to acknowledge, but the birth rates are going to lead to catastrophy.

The planet can only support a limited amount of humans - famines and drought are inevitable consequences of overpopulation.

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