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This Will Be Controversial I Suppose
Topic Started: Jul 8 2011, 05:39 AM (1,015 Views)
Blacksmith
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Jeff Hall
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
By sheer luck, your ancestors were also born in a country that has few natural disasters. It has nothing to do with hard work when a famine or a drought hits. So I still say we should consider ourselves very lucky.
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Kaje
Garry Pendrey
[ *  *  *  * ]
Des
Jul 14 2011, 04:57 PM
Kaje
we do it because we are lucky enough to live in the greatest country on earth. This green & pleasent land where people from the other side of the globe will  pay to be locked inside a container because at the end of the journey they will be in the promised land.
We should fall onto our knees and thank the lord that we live here.
Helping those less fortunate than ourselves seems to be the least we can do.
Also all countries that have low gdp have high birthrates, probably this isnt the rioght forum to explain in detail but basically unlike here children over there can start to contribute to the family`sattempt to prosper from an early age and financially they are a very low cost burden when they are infants.
For example look into details of the Irish Famine in the 1800`s striking similarities!.
P.S. Well done Simon! I would love to help out with my time in these countries when I retire!

KRO

Not sure why you've addressed that to just me, considering I wasn't even the first to have the controversial viewpoint.

You might like to read back through and pick up some other names, too.

Just to pick up the only other point you make, which has already been made re: birth rates - should the countries involved not look to adopt child restriction policies in the future (a la China) to try and reduce the burden on funds, medicine and food supplies?

It would be a responsible thing to do and would probably lower the death rates and save many, many lives.

I don't go in for all the religious mumbo jumbo, sorry, but I believe that children are an absolute blessing. I hope I'm lucky enough to have kids of my own one day. But I also believe that they should be given a fair chance of a good quality of life, and if they're not being brought into an environment that can sustain and nourish them, then we're being irresponsible and callous.
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Aussiebrum
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Mikael Forssell
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I do a small amount of business in North Africa.

The biggest mpediment to creating jobs which is essential to lifting people out of poverty is the Governments.

There is so much corruption making it so hard to invest and generate economic activity there so most people just give up.
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BlueBrummie
Geoff Horsfield
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
IMO not a penny should be sent to them, blame all their ills on colonialism, makes me sick it does, when we ran vast swathes of the continent there was none of these problems, let them sort out their own mess.
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keepthecityblue
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Frank Worthington
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Blacksmith
Jul 14 2011, 06:45 PM
By sheer luck, your ancestors were also born in a country that has few natural disasters. It has nothing to do with hard work when a famine or a drought hits. So I still say we should consider ourselves very lucky.

But it was not "sheer luck" as you put it. You are where you are when you are born as a result of the decisions of your ancestors - for the better or worse.
The issue I take with "luck" is that I myself could not be me had I had any different ancestors. I never could have been born an African - as I could never have been me if I had been.

That is not to say that I do not feel a huge amount of sympathy to those born into unfortunate conditions, whatever they may be.

Anyhow, no it doesnt have anything to do with hard work when famine or drought hits - but it does have something to do with demographics.

"Natural disasters" can be largely caused by and/or further exacerbated by the actions of mankind.

A huge population in one of the most drought and famine-prone parts of the world is a catastrophy waiting to happen.

As I have said earlier in the thread, I don't have the answers to that particular issue - but clearly something must be done.

People really need to look at the animal kingdom, and remember that what happens there will happen to us.
When vital resources become scarce - competition for them intensifies. Invariably the weakest suffer most and die first. For humans that means war.
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Woodbine
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Mikael Forssell
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What people don't realise is that overseas aid can be more damaging than helpful in some respects. Like the mountains of clothing donations that have killed off much of Africa's clothing industry.
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treetop
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Alex Govan
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Blacksmith
Jul 14 2011, 04:47 PM
By a stroke of luck we were born in a country that does not have the droughts and other disasters that affect other parts of the world.

By a stroke of bad luck others are born in countries that seem to have one natural disaster after another.

Think yourselves lucky that through an accident of birth you are able to sit and type your views on a computer, rather than be malnurished, have flies crawling all over you and have to drink whatever water you can, no matter how safe it is.

Governments may be partly to blame, but try telling that to the starving.

Quote:
 
By a stroke of luck we were born in a country that does not have the droughts


Being born in in certain countries isn't luck it's stupidity.

Quote:
 
Governments may be partly to blame, but try telling that to the starving.


I believe Governments are soley to blame not partly. Obviously not for the birth rates in certain countries but for the corruption involved. Not just in African countries either. I believe the vast majority of MP's Police and all in authority are corrupt in one way or another.
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Blacksmith
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Jeff Hall
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BlueBrummie
Jul 14 2011, 11:53 PM
IMO not a penny should be sent to them, blame all their ills on colonialism, makes me sick it does, when we ran vast swathes of the continent there was none of these problems, let them sort out their own mess.

And there was me thinking that we were a compassionate society. Obviously I'm wrong because of views like this that are basically saying, "As long as I'm ok, I don't care what happens to other people. Let them all die, for all I care."

Try telling people like this woman and her baby that it's all their fault and they should sort out their own mess.

Posted Image

Yes, goverments can be partly to blame, but nobody can be to blame for a drought and famine that is the worst for 60 years.

I hope you enjoyed your breakfast this morning.
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Kaje
Garry Pendrey
[ *  *  *  * ]
Famine is related to population numbers, which is obviously caused by high birth rates.

I'm sorry, but the countries involved NEED to promote and enforce contraception and a 'per family' child restriction a la China.

Only then will population numbers level out a little and perhaps give food stores time to also level out.

I'm not saying countries never require aid, but we should work WITH them and not FOR them as we currently do. They have to pick up the ball and run with it now and again, too, and not just expect to have things given to them.
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Des
Malcom Page
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Kaje
I only read your thread apart from |Maulleys, however I feel that we in this beloved land of milk & honey often underestimate that life is all about survival in countries in the horn of Africa and contributing to keep starving children from Death seems ony to be a natural instinct of anyone with a shred of humanity.
Regarding Birthrates! My Dad was born in 1925 as the 7th of eventually 10 children to a dirt poor family In Ireland.
Every child from the age of four onwards did something to contribute to the survival of the family, from collecting wood to making Flax.
The cost to the family of those children was almost negligable sleeping four to a bed and wearing hand me down clothest. One huge bowl oof porridge for breakfast amongst the whole family and one large potatoe and a few cabbage leaves for dinner.
Dad came to England as a contributor to our War effort and never stopped blessing this country for the opportunities it gave him!


KRO
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tim
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Malcom Page
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
a couple of words that are intrinsically linked and would of helped to aleviate at lot of the issues here.

Infrastructure and Goverance.

You can't help the weather, but you can do your upmost to have contingencies in place. Unfortunately this hasn't happened.

Happy to contribute if it stops people dying right now, but they have to help themselves.
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Raters
Bob Latchford
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Blacksmith
Jul 15 2011, 09:49 AM
BlueBrummie
Jul 14 2011, 11:53 PM
IMO not a penny should be sent to them, blame all their ills on colonialism, makes me sick it does, when we ran vast swathes of the continent there was none of these problems, let them sort out their own mess.

And there was me thinking that we were a compassionate society. Obviously I'm wrong because of views like this that are basically saying, "As long as I'm ok, I don't care what happens to other people. Let them all die, for all I care."

Try telling people like this woman and her baby that it's all their fault and they should sort out their own mess.

Posted Image

Yes, goverments can be partly to blame, but nobody can be to blame for a drought and famine that is the worst for 60 years.

I hope you enjoyed your breakfast this morning.

I get your point Blacksmith.

And we should be doing something, i just don't think aid is the answer. Well it hasn't worked in the last 60 years has it?


One thing that always makes me wonder though, and you can see it from this picture. How come the mother looks well feed and the kid doesn't?
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Kaje
Garry Pendrey
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Des
Jul 15 2011, 11:46 AM
Kaje
I only read your thread apart from |Maulleys, however I feel that we in this beloved land of milk & honey often underestimate that life is all about survival in countries in the horn of Africa and contributing to keep starving children from Death seems ony to be a natural instinct of anyone with a shred of humanity.
Regarding Birthrates! My Dad was born in 1925 as the 7th of eventually 10 children to a dirt poor family In Ireland.
Every child from the age of four onwards did something to contribute to the survival of the family, from collecting wood to making Flax.
The cost to the family of those children was almost negligable sleeping four to a bed and wearing hand me down clothest. One huge bowl oof porridge for breakfast amongst the whole family and one large potatoe and a few cabbage leaves for dinner.
Dad came to England as a contributor to our War effort and never stopped blessing this country for the opportunities it gave him!


KRO

Contributing does nothing but bail out a little of the water, we need to plug the hole as a long term solution - not give them a bottomless pit of temporary aid.

Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime. It's about time we started applying that old adage to Africa.
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treetop
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Alex Govan
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Raters
Jul 15 2011, 12:17 PM
Blacksmith
Jul 15 2011, 09:49 AM
BlueBrummie
Jul 14 2011, 11:53 PM
IMO not a penny should be sent to them, blame all their ills on colonialism, makes me sick it does, when we ran vast swathes of the continent there was none of these problems, let them sort out their own mess.

And there was me thinking that we were a compassionate society. Obviously I'm wrong because of views like this that are basically saying, "As long as I'm ok, I don't care what happens to other people. Let them all die, for all I care."

Try telling people like this woman and her baby that it's all their fault and they should sort out their own mess.

Posted Image

Yes, goverments can be partly to blame, but nobody can be to blame for a drought and famine that is the worst for 60 years.

I hope you enjoyed your breakfast this morning.

I get your point Blacksmith.

And we should be doing something, i just don't think aid is the answer. Well it hasn't worked in the last 60 years has it?


One thing that always makes me wonder though, and you can see it from this picture. How come the mother looks well feed and the kid doesn't?

You've hit the nail on the head rats. We and others have sent millions upon millions to help them over the years but year in, year out the same old problems are still there, and this is exactly my point THE SAME OLD PROBLEMS. So (monetary aid) is definitely not working, education is what's required.

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bcfcno1fan
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Alex Govan
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I dont know much on the subject to be totally honest, but I do give my bit to Comic Relief when I can, but to be honest, like many say, it is clear to the eye it isnt working..

Id much prefer we sorted our own country out first, as I believe the money we have given to Africa over the years could have been spent alot better in our local communities.

Without being mean, there are places in my beloved Birmingham I just dont like walking through, i'm only 21, but in the last 15 years or so, everything has suddenly changed dramatically.

They do seem to be bringing to many kids into the world over there, backed up by statistics.

Id rather bring one child into the world than 5 or 6 and 2 live to the age of 7.

Charity starts at home, so lets sort out our country, whilst working on a better solution for Africa and then go forward with that when we have it.
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bluenoseXUX
Olivier Tebily
[ *  *  * ]
blueblood
Jul 8 2011, 01:28 PM
women having children that the state pay for.

Women and men. Unless we're talking immaculate conceptions...

Lets not pin that all on the women shall we? Men not wrapping up are just as much to blame.
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bluenoseXUX
Olivier Tebily
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Are people missing the fact that a significant proportion of Comic Relief's money is donated to British aid and charities?
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bcfcno1fan
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Alex Govan
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bluenoseXUX
Jul 16 2011, 01:15 PM
Are people missing the fact that a significant proportion of Comic Relief's money is donated to British aid and charities?

Isnt it about 20%? Still dont know if thats going to the right place..

Education is exactly what is needed, everywhere.
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bluenoseXUX
Olivier Tebily
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bcfcno1fan
Jul 16 2011, 03:18 PM
bluenoseXUX
Jul 16 2011, 01:15 PM
Are people missing the fact that a significant proportion of Comic Relief's money is donated to British aid and charities?

Isnt it about 20%? Still dont know if thats going to the right place..

Education is exactly what is needed, everywhere.

It's 40%.

This is how it's worked out:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/find_out...000/2654429.stm
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treetop
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Alex Govan
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bcfcno1fan
Jul 16 2011, 11:28 AM
I dont know much on the subject to be totally honest, but I do give my bit to Comic Relief when I can, but to be honest, like many say, it is clear to the eye it isnt working..

Id much prefer we sorted our own country out first, as I believe the money we have given to Africa over the years could have been spent alot better in our local communities.

Without being mean, there are places in my beloved Birmingham I just dont like walking through, i'm only 21, but in the last 15 years or so, everything has suddenly changed dramatically.

They do seem to be bringing to many kids into the world over there, backed up by statistics.

Id rather bring one child into the world than 5 or 6 and 2 live to the age of 7.

Charity starts at home, so lets sort out our country, whilst working on a better solution for Africa and then go forward with that when we have it.

:applause: One of the most sensible quotes I have ever heard from a 21 year old.
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lordnewtown
Geoff Horsfield
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This is somewhat closely related to what some have said already, but I feel this is something that is often underrated and ignored.

If you look, the most populous countries in the world tend to be poorer ones (India and China despite experiencing an economic boom still have most people living in poverty), In Europe those countries with the highest birth rates I do believe are the poorest ones, and even within our own beloved city of Birmingham, it's the poorer areas where people have the most kids.

Now most people are perfectly right in a way when they talk about 'Education' as being a factor, but I feel that is purely and simply a matter of........sex.

It sounds so simple but it's true.

Poorer people the world over tend to have more children just purely and simply because they have more time to engage in sexual relations. Education obviously comes into it when we're dealing with the issue of contraception but it all starts with the desire for sex.

I've worked door-to-door for years and I can remember once having some woman lean out of the upstairs window and it was pretty clear that by ringing the doorbell, I'd interrupted them in the middle of something. And I can remember thinking at the time, "I myself would love to be doing that right at this moment, but here I am at work so I can't, but for them, with nowt else to do, they can whenever they want."

I used to joke and say that the best way to increase fertility is to go on the dole!

Now it might sound like I'm criticising people for having sex, but I am definitely definitely not because that would be very hypocritical.

But what I'm saying is that no matter where in the world it is, when people don't have the money to engage in other pastimes and hobbies, when they have nothing else to occupy their time, the one thing that's free of charge and easy to do is that most natural of human desires, sex.

I think that for developed countries, developed regions or even developed neighbourhoods, there is no need really for contraception because the daily goings on of life tend to take care of that problem in many ways and the people are usually, USUALLY, more responsible anyway.

But in poorer more deprived places, where many people ONLY have sex, nothing else, THAT'S where the education about contraception is needed.

But education is a slow process, and in the mean time, the best form of contraception might just be to give those people something else to occupy their time with, thus statisitically reducing the chances of babies being conceived by people ill-prepared.

All the money sent to Africa for example, as well as taking care of basic needs like food, water and shelter, maybe some of it could have been invested in large-scale schemes like helping to build and improve the road infrastructure, thus giving the people something else to live for and making sex a nice added bonus rather than a very risky way of passing the time.












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blueblood
Johnny Vincent
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lordnewtown
Jul 17 2011, 11:24 AM
This is somewhat closely related to what some have said already, but I feel this is something that is often underrated and ignored.

If you look, the most populous countries in the world tend to be poorer ones (India and China despite experiencing an economic boom still have most people living in poverty), In Europe those countries with the highest birth rates I do believe are the poorest ones, and even within our own beloved city of Birmingham, it's the poorer areas where people have the most kids.

Now most people are perfectly right in a way when they talk about 'Education' as being a factor, but I feel that is purely and simply a matter of........sex.

It sounds so simple but it's true.

Poorer people the world over tend to have more children just purely and simply because they have more time to engage in sexual relations. Education obviously comes into it when we're dealing with the issue of contraception but it all starts with the desire for sex.

I've worked door-to-door for years and I can remember once having some woman lean out of the upstairs window and it was pretty clear that by ringing the doorbell, I'd interrupted them in the middle of something. And I can remember thinking at the time, "I myself would love to be doing that right at this moment, but here I am at work so I can't, but for them, with nowt else to do, they can whenever they want."

I used to joke and say that the best way to increase fertility is to go on the dole!

Now it might sound like I'm criticising people for having sex, but I am definitely definitely not because that would be very hypocritical.

But what I'm saying is that no matter where in the world it is, when people don't have the money to engage in other pastimes and hobbies, when they have nothing else to occupy their time, the one thing that's free of charge and easy to do is that most natural of human desires, sex.

I think that for developed countries, developed regions or even developed neighbourhoods, there is no need really for contraception because the daily goings on of life tend to take care of that problem in many ways and the people are usually, USUALLY, more responsible anyway.

But in poorer more deprived places, where many people ONLY have sex, nothing else, THAT'S where the education about contraception is needed.

But education is a slow process, and in the mean time, the best form of contraception might just be to give those people something else to occupy their time with, thus statisitically reducing the chances of babies being conceived by people ill-prepared.

All the money sent to Africa for example, as well as taking care of basic needs like food, water and shelter, maybe some of it could have been invested in large-scale schemes like helping to build and improve the road infrastructure, thus giving the people something else to live for and making sex a nice added bonus rather than a very risky way of passing the time.

I need one of Simon's not sure if serious pictures.

:break:
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ChicagoBlues
Ian Bennett
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lordnewtown
Jul 17 2011, 11:24 AM
This is somewhat closely related to what some have said already, but I feel this is something that is often underrated and ignored.

If you look, the most populous countries in the world tend to be poorer ones (India and China despite experiencing an economic boom still have most people living in poverty), In Europe those countries with the highest birth rates I do believe are the poorest ones, and even within our own beloved city of Birmingham, it's the poorer areas where people have the most kids.

Now most people are perfectly right in a way when they talk about 'Education' as being a factor, but I feel that is purely and simply a matter of........sex.

It sounds so simple but it's true.

Poorer people the world over tend to have more children just purely and simply because they have more time to engage in sexual relations.  Education obviously comes into it when we're dealing with the issue of contraception but it all starts with the desire for sex.

I've worked door-to-door for years and I can remember once having some woman lean out of the upstairs window and it was pretty clear that by ringing the doorbell, I'd interrupted them in the middle of something.  And I can remember thinking at the time, "I myself would love to be doing that right at this moment, but here I am at work so I can't, but for them, with nowt else to do, they can whenever they want."

I used to joke and say that the best way to increase fertility is to go on the dole!

Now it might sound like I'm criticising people for having sex, but I am definitely definitely not because that would be very hypocritical.

But what I'm saying is that no matter where in the world it is, when people don't have the money to engage in other pastimes and hobbies, when they have nothing else to occupy their time, the one thing that's free of charge and easy to do is that most natural of human desires, sex.

I think that for developed countries, developed regions or even developed neighbourhoods, there is no need really for contraception because the daily goings on of life tend to take care of that problem in many ways and the people are usually, USUALLY, more responsible anyway.

But in poorer more deprived places, where many people ONLY have sex, nothing else, THAT'S where the education about contraception is needed.

But education is a slow process, and in the mean time, the best form of contraception might just be to give those people something else to occupy their time with, thus statisitically reducing the chances of babies being conceived by people ill-prepared.

All the money sent to Africa for example, as well as taking care of basic needs like food, water and shelter, maybe some of it could have been invested in large-scale schemes like helping to build and improve the road infrastructure, thus giving the people something else to live for and making sex a nice added bonus rather than a very risky way of passing the time.

Posted Image
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abblue
Frank Worthington
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How much are the Somali pirates contributing to the disaster fund ?
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The Yeung Pretenders
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Geoff Horsfield
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African women have a high number of kids to provide security for themselves when they get older. A parent knows that a child might die so they have a number of kids to ensure they have enough kids to look after them when they get older. Plus an African child will be expected to contribute a lot more to the family than an average Western child. They will be sent to work at a young age, tending the families farm. I volunteered in Ethiopia for a number of weeks and you saw the heavy burden put on children to contribute to their families. I wish teaching in a school and we had a two hour break during the day so most kids could go home and help their family. It is a sad state of affairs when a child grows up with no childhood.

Africa went downhill after most countries got their independence. A lot of the countries were relatively prosperous and were run well. However with the independence movements all the old colonial rulers and government administrators were removed. It basically left a couple of educated people with no experience to run a country. It was a disaster. Most of these countries rapidly went into decline and started running up huge debts. Then a lot of the governments started playing sides in the cold war, switching their allegiances as soon as they could get a better offer. Then came the corruption, with the countries going into debt the governments trying to save as much money as possible for themselves and built up vast fortunes. Whether Africa is still a land of dictators is debatable, but it is clear that a lot of the leaders are not democratically elected. A lot of Africa's countries modern day problems can be traced back to their independence and how they did not have the ruling structures in place to run a country.

Aid in its present form is not the solution. Instead of giving a country money, we should be sponsoring specific projects. Money that goes through the government barely trickles down to these charity projects. I knew an Ethiopian who set up a feeding centre for the local children, it had taken him a couple of years to get it off the ground. There are so many local government officials that you have to go through and you basically have to bribe them to get a project off the ground.

Africa is a beautiful continent, the people are lovely and it is very scenic. However it will unlikely ever manifest into a tourist haven due to its many problems. Education is the way forward, and if a proper education system was implemented in each country the continent may start to make significant progress.
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